SIMSHALOM and a Scientist DEBATE!: Judaism and Science, History, and other issues:Group & Email Exchange
A SCIENTIST finds fault with a SIMSHALOM essay on the weekly Torah Parshah (portion).

Subject: Re: Parshat Mishpatim_Judaism and Law: The Greatest Constitution

IN SIX PARTS:

PLEASE NOTE: there is some over-lap in the contents of each part because as the debate unfolds there are references to previous points (messages)

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---PART ONE---

---In PART ONE: Scientist's Objections to SIMSHALOM's Essay (Scientist quotes extracts and states objections)---

Scientist: While I certainly appreciate the greatness of our Torah and the laws that are stated in this week's parsha, I disagree with much of the rest of the essay, especially its criticism of science. See comments below.

SIMSHALOM: The Russian Revolution that overthrew the Czarist system took place in 1917 was supposed to bring more freedom to the people.

Scientist: It did -- for eight months. One of the first things the Provisional Government did was to give full civil rights to Jews. Hundreds of Jewish schools and publications, sprung up almost overnight in the wonderful summer of 1917.

Scientist: Then the Bolsheviks took over.

SIMSHALOM: It was only after the Second World War (1939 - 1945), after the crushing defeats of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, that the rest of the world was able to obtain freedom from the remaining colonial powers, such as Israel and India from Britain in 1948.

Scientist: India and Pakistan became independent in 1947, not 1948. Egypt and the Irish Free State had become independent in the 1920s. And Mexico, all of Central America, and almost the entire continent of South America had become independent a century earlier. And in any case, much of the leadership of Britain and France opposed letting go of their colonial empires even after World War II.

SIMSHALOM: Freedom for the slaves;

Scientist: Sadly, religious Jews for the most part did not oppose slavery in the United States. Some of us even profited from the slave trade.

SIMSHALOM: (Remember any of these?: The "theory" that "meteor showers" killed out the bumbling dinosaurs billions of years ago as they foraged for food in swamps that sucked them under forever?

Scientist: The dinosaurs weren't all that bumbling; many didn't live in swamps, and there is an awful lot of evidence for that theory.

SIMSHALOM: is in front of their noses. Some start with the Middle Ages, and others look at English Common Law

Scientist: English Common Law is dramatically different from Torah Law. It is much less flexible in practice.

SIMSHALOM: So here is another question that deserves some of your intellectual curiosity: HOW DO YOU SQUARE OFF AND RECONCILE THE BASIC PREMISES OF A GREAT LEGAL SYSTEM AND CONSTITUTION WITH ACCEPTANCE AND BELIEF IN THE MEANINGS AND RAMIFICATIONS OF THE POPULAR THEORY OF EVOLUTION? Essentially what I am asking is how do you reconcile two contradictory philosophies of life and living?

Scientist: I see nothing contradictory. Evolution isn't a theory; it is an observed fact. I wish it weren't. We would be an awful lot better off if new microbes WEREN'T evolving and in the process developing resistance to what used to be lifesaving medical treatments. But HaShem created evolution.

SIMSHALOM: Accepting the notion that life evolved over "millions" of years from amoebas;

Scientist: This is a mistatement of currently accepted scientific understanding; amoebas are clearly NOT the beginnings of life as they are rather complex microorganisms (eukaryotes) that appeared rather late in the evolutionary process.In addition, much of the Christian world realized (correctly) that there is no conflict between religion and science; the Church of England did so in the late 19th century. Even the Catholic Church finally rehabilitated Galileo a few years ago. For the religious Jewish perspective, see below.

SIMSHALOM: there is no longer a role for that type of morality associated with the same beliefs

Scientist: I am a scientist and an Orthodox Jew. I certainly do NOT believe the above statement!

SIMSHALOM: those who lived within their society beginning with the REVELATION and the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai in the Hebrew year 2448 (1312 B.C.E.) more than 3,300 years ago!

Scientist: The exact date of the giving of the Torah is difficult to ascertain.

SIMSHALOM: "VE-EILEH". The famous rabbinical commentator RASHI, Rabbi Shlomoh ben Yitzchaki (France, 1040 - 1105) teaches: "Wherever 'these are' -

Scientist: Rashi also wrote, in his commentary on the very first verse of the Torah, "Scripture did not [intend to] teach anything of the earlier or later sequence [of creation]." (Metsudah translation.) There are many more recent Orthodox sources that indicate that evolution should not be a problem for Orthodox Jews; one is on page 194 of the Hertz Chumash (written in 1936), which can be found in most Orthodox shuls. What we as religious Jews should object to (according to Rabbi Hertz and the teachers I have had) is the idea
that HaShem is not behind whatever process there is, not the scientific description of the process itself.

I also fail to understand the author's generally negative attitude to secular learning that I sense from this essay. Certainly great sages
such as Rambam and Ibn Ezra would never have discounted secular learning; the former was the greatest physician of his time and the
latter was the greatest mathematician of his time. In our time there are three secular universities under the auspices of religious Jews;
I am proud to be on the faculty of one of them.

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---PART TWO---

---In PART TWO: SIMSHALOM responds to the Scientist's objections, quoting his words (with reference to previous statements by SIMSHALOM included)---

SIMSHALOM: Hi ,Your comments are well taken. My responses are in double square brackets, like so [[ ]]
Shalom!

Subject: Re: Parshat Mishpatim_Judaism and Law: The Greatest Constitution

Scientist: While I certainly appreciate the greatness of our Torah and the laws that are stated in this week's parsha, I disagree with much of the rest of the essay, especially its criticism of science. See comments below.

SIMSHALOM: [[This is not a critique of science per se. Judaism is not "anti-science" and neither am I. But one can be suspicious of those who "believe" in science almost as if it were a kind of "secular religious belief system". That is what is called "scientism" , and it does not befit men and women of the pure sciences to "bow down" and make an "idol" of what is basically only the study of the EMPIRICAL physical world around us. And definitely, WHEN is so often the case, scientists are PROUD of their ATHEISM and AGNOSTICISM, which is many times the case, then GOD believing Torah Jews can 100% discard "theories" about Evolution then without even a second thought! (That is my view.) Guilt or inferiority complexes should NOT allow "catch up" or "peace makers" between people who are ANTI-God and Torah values based on Emunah and Bitachon in Hashem. Some "shidduchim" just don't work, so let's stop fooling ourselves that science as taught by athiests can be married to the Torah of Hshem.The ancient Greeks also studied science and that was fine. But when they wanted their "scientific wisdom" --"chochma" to usurp the Torah, they over-stepped their bounds. There were in fact large numbers of Jews who adopted a melding of Judaism and Greek science and their greatest thinker was Philo, not considered to be part of the Torah mainstream, then or now]]

SIMSHALOM: The Russian Revolution that overthrew the Czarist system >took place in 1917 was supposed to bring more freedom to >the people.

Scientist: It did -- for eight months. One of the first things the Provisional Government did was to give full civil rights to Jews. Hundreds of Jewish schools and publications, sprung up almost overnight in the wonderful summer of 1917. Then the Bolsheviks took over.

SIMSHALOM: [[I am well aware that there was a Kerensky Govt. that was Liberal that was then overthrown by the Bolsheviks. I was not delving into the details of the _events_ of 1917. My point is part of a flow of events that I was describing that humanity at large was experiencing IMPERFECT or UNFINISHED revolutions of freedom after the year of 1776 when the USA produced its watershed Declaration of Independence, whereby I was also leading up to the point that the Torah had already done this over 3,300 years ago!

SIMSHALOM: ing colonial powers, such as Israel and India from Britain in 1948.

Scientist: India and Pakistan became independent in 1947, not 1948. Egypt and the Irish Free State had become independent in the 1920s. And Mexico, all of Central America, and almost the entire continent of South America had become independent a century earlier. And in any case, much of the leadership of Britain and France opposed letting go of their colonial empires even after World War II.

SIMSHALOM: [[Yes you are correct, India was granted its independence in 1947, so was Israel. However, in Israel's case the British only WITHDREW in and then it became free in 1948. My goal in the essay was to point out how the road to freedom and independence from colonialism was still _NOT COMPLETE_ by the end of the twentieth century, and obviously there had been places on earth were countries had already gained freedom since 1776. Again, my purpose is to show how the Torah's visions which were familiar to the Jewish people, only took a hold thousands of years AFTER the Torah had set forth its ideals of human relations.]]

SIMSHALOM: Freedom for the slaves;

Scientist: Sadly, religious Jews for the most part did not oppose slavery in the United States. Some of us even profited from the slave trade.

SIMSHALOM: [["Some of US???" Who are they? Where are they? "religious Jews did not oppose slavery"???Does that imply that non-religious ones did oppose it? Anyhow, once again I was saying that the Torah was teaching something that would take a long time to actualize all over the world.Going back many centuries, 99% of the world's Jews were VICTIMS of either Christian hate in Europe, where they were confined to Ghettos or the Pale of Settlement, or condemned to 2nd class "dhimi" status in Moslem lands. Jewish blood was cheap and flowed easily and no-one cared to protect them. The modern slave trade was the business of the CHRISTIAN British, Spanish and Portuguese who needed labor in their colonies and the Black PAGAN chiefs and Arab MOSLEM sheiks who hunted down innocent black people in the jungles of AFRICA and shipped them to America with the commercial and military fleets of CHRISTIAN Britain and Spain. Now, what do you mean Jews did not "oppose" slavery in the US? Do you mean the world's Jews who were fighting off the Cossacks and Jihadists and were light years removed from the dirty slave business? Surely not! Very, very few Jews found their way to the New World. Mass immigration of Jews only started in the 1880s, themselves escaping real SERFDOM and by then slavery had long ended in the USA.When you say "religious Jews" I wonder who you mean? In the United States until the Civil War, the few thousand Jews around, mostly assimilated Sephardim originally from Spain, some from England and a trickle started coming from Germany, were NOT what we would call "religious" today. Even though they had built some synagogues, many had already started intermarrying. See a story at:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/jewish/colonial.temptations.asp
The most famous example is Judah Benjamin (1811-1884), the Confederate Secretary of War and then State who married a Catholic woman from the South.They had no full time yeshivas, hardly any learned clergy, and in any case usually were the most humane in the very few instances where they had plantations. Otherwise they were mostly merchants and shopkeepers. The truly religious masses of Jews were in Europe, where millions of them were suffering persecution in Eastern Europe, and in Western Europe they were enjoying the benefits of their own freedoms from the Ghettos. Eventually they were all murdered in the Holocaust.]]

SIMSHALOM: (Remember any of these?: The "theory" that "meteor showers" >killed out the bumbling dinosaurs billions of years ago as they >foraged for food in swamps that sucked them under forever?

Scientist: The dinosaurs weren't all that bumbling; many didn't live in swamps, and there is an awful lot of evidence for that theory.

SIMSHALOM: [[Ok, so here is the famous question: Has ANY scientist EVER met and examined a LIVING dinosaur? (A couple of cracked mystery bones in the middle of New Mexico or the Kalahari Desert don't count even as serious forensic proof).How many times have they done this? Are ALL scientists in agreement about the details of the dinosaur's "disappearance", that is if they ever existed at all? Until such time as they do, it would be wise for them to restrict their studies to animals and patients (or minerals and vegetables) that are SCIENTIFICALLY EMPIRICALLY observable and quantifiable millions of times over. In halachah, "evidence" means TWO kosher sane adult male witnesses who have OBSERVED the fact happening WITH THEIR OWN EYES AND EARS, otherwise it is inadmissible, not even just "hearsay" (in the case of humans) and certainly when an alleged set of events is "theorized" to have happened billions of years ago, by the Torah's own legal standards the dinosaurs can stay in the movies where they belong.]]

SIMSHALOM: is in front of their noses. Some start with the Middle Ages, >and others look at English Common Law

Scientist: English Common Law is dramatically different from Torah Law. It is much less flexible in practice.

SIMSHALOM: [[Events in English Law and history are often held up as examples of "progress", like the Magna Carta. My reference in the essay was just to show that even though great developments may have happened in other nations' legal histories, for the Jews, greater legally significant events in a similar vein had already occurred thousands of years earlier.]]

SIMSHALOM: So here is another question that deserves some of your intellectual curiosity: HOW DO YOU SQUARE OFF AND RECONCILE THE BASIC PREMISES OF A GREAT LEGAL SYSTEM AND CONSTITUTION WITH ACCEPTANCE AND BELIEF IN THE MEANINGS AND RAMIFICATIONS OF THE POPULAR THEORY OF EVOLUTION? Essentially what I am asking is how do you reconcile two contradictory philosophies of life and living?

Scientist: I see nothing contradictory. Evolution isn't a theory; it is an observed fact. I wish it weren't. We would be an awful lot better off if new microbes WEREN'T evolving and in the process developing resistance to what used to be lifesaving medical treatments. But HaShem created evolution.

SIMSHALOM: [[Has ANYONE "observed" a Neanderthal "man" turning into "Joe Smith" yet? We are not talking about looking into a petrie dish with an atomic microscope that studies "nano-microbes", and we are not talking "cross-breeding" that farmers have always been able to do when the need arises, as proven by the mule. Has anyone seen tails grow shorter and become the human spine? Have we seen cold blooded fish become warm blooded mammals or vice versa yet? You know, most of us cannot buy into answers that require a waiting period of a million years or more.It is science itself that would, and should, require more intellectual honesty and humility.]]

SIMSHALOM: Accepting the notion that life evolved over "millions" of years from amoebas;

Scientist: This is a misstatement of currently accepted scientific understanding; amoebas are clearly NOT the beginnings of life as they are rather complex microorganisms (eukaryotes) that appeared rather late in the evolutionary process.

SIMSHALOM: [[I am obviously not a trained biologist or whatever, however my point is to point out the extreme difficulty with accepting the evolutionist doctrines.]]

Scientist: In addition, much of the Christian world realized (correctly) that there is no conflict between religion and science; the Church of England did so in the late 19th century. Even the Catholic Church finally rehabilitated Galileo a few years ago. For the religious Jewish perspective, see below.

SIMSHALOM: [[The Christian world is the least original theological movement that has ever existed in human history. They "hijacked" another religion, i.e. Judaism, and re-wrote the script with a "New Edition" and a story to legitimize their actions. Sorry they have no credibility as far as Judaism is concerned. That is why they are a different religion. Religion should remain focused on its main "job" the teaching of morality. The NORMATIVE Domain is the realm of morality and religion.]]

Scientist: I for one do NOT believe the above statement!

SIMSHALOM: [[Ok, that is certainly your right. But the argument is based on its facts and merits and not on our personal beliefs alone, though they may be important.]]

SIMSHALOM: a who lived within their society beginning with the >REVELATION and the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai in >the Hebrew year 2448 (1312 B.C.E.) more than 3,300 years >ago!

Scientist: The exact date of the giving of the Torah is difficult to ascertain.

SIMSHALOM: [[It is NOT. For example, see the Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan Chumash on page 22, with year of Exodus and giving of Torah as 2448 on the Hebrew calendar.(Moses died 40 years later on 2488, even Judaism101 mentions it http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm ) These are derived from reliable sources. It's not a "hit or miss" thing with a range of "billions" of years after all.]]

SIMSHALOM: "VE-EILEH". The famous rabbinical commentator RASHI, >Rabbi Shlomoh ben Yitzchaki (France, 1040 - 1105) teaches: "Wherever 'these are' -

Scientist: Rashi also wrote, in his commentary on the very first verse of the Torah, "Scripture did not [intend to] teach anything of the earlier or later sequence [of creation]." (Metsudah translation.) There are many more recent Orthodox sources that indicate that evolution should not be a problem for Orthodox Jews; one is on page 194 of the Hertz Chumash (written in 1936), which can be found in most Orthodox shuls. What we as religious Jews should object to (according to Rabbi Hertz and the teachers I have had) is the idea that HaShem is not behind whatever process there is, not the scientific description of the process itself.

SIMSHALOM: [[I do not follow your reasoning about RASHI. I do not think that Rashi was giving "approbations" to Darwin's theories. If you are referring to the first chapter of Genesis, then Rashi is trying to explain that the 6 days as they are described in the Torah are not a mere human "chronology" but rather it's a far more complex process whereby God creates an entire full mature universe and an Adam and Eve over a series of days. I know that their is the notion that some may want to think that the 6 days of creation represent 6 eons of time so that you can squeeze in all the mutations and natural selections that come along over billions of years, but it's not just a "cop out" it's simple not the correct reading of what Rashi is saying. As for Rabbi Dr. Hertz. he was a great man in his time a hundred years ago, but by now, most Orthodox synagogues have replaced his commentary with that of ArtScroll's texts.Yes I agree with you, Dr. Hertz did make some brilliant arguments explaining Judaism, however he is no more than a popular writer. He is NOT regarded as a definitive halachik source or authority for anything in Judaism. As an example, compare his Hertz's writings with the Chofetz Chaim who lived at the same time. An serious Orthodox layperson and scholar knows that the Chofetz Chaim's teachings and guidelines are very important to follow, and very few today have any knowledge that Rabbi Hertz even existed.]]

Scientist: I also fail to understand the author's generally negative attitude to secular learning that I sense from this essay. Certainly great sages such as Rambam and Ibn Ezra would never have discounted secular learning; the former was the greatest physician of his time and the latter was the greatest mathematician of his time. In our time there are three secular universities under the auspices of religious Jews; I am proud to be on the faculty of one of them.

SIMSHALOM: [[I am not discounting secular learning. By the way, in the yeshiva world, the word "learning" is only used in connection with Torah, whereas one "studies" or takes "courses" or "credits" or does "research' at college. Classical Judaism obliges its followers to accept and believe that there is CHOCHMA among the gentiles. Thus secularly trained and even gentile doctors aware trusted for the most sensitive life and death operations. But one must know that in Judaism the TORAH is supreme and reigns way and above anything the secular world can ever produce, which is quite flattering to the Torah and Judaism and that is certainly something to be proud of.]]

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---PART THREE---

---In PART THREE: The Scientist responds to SIMSHALOM's response to the Scientist's first criticisms (quoting earlier satements by both)---

Subject: Re: Critique of "Parshat Mishpatim"

SIMSHALOM: Hi Your comments are well taken. My responses are in double square
brackets, like so [[ ]] Shalom!

Scientist: Thanks! I appreciate your thoughtful response. May our arguments all be for the sake of heaven.

I've put my comments in braces {}.

SIMSHALOM: [[This is not a critique of science per se. Judaism is not "anti-science" and neither am I. But one can be suspicious of those who "believe" in science almost as if it were a kind of "secular religious belief system". That is what is called "scientism" , and it does not befit men and women of the pure sciences to "bow down" and make an "idol" of what is basically only the study of the EMPIRICAL physical world around us.

Scientist: {snip}

Scientist: {I agree, but I have found this to be very rare among people who actually work as scientists. I know far more scientists who are Torah-observant Jews! It is fairly common among some intellectual circles, however. It used to exasperate me, but I've gotten over it. Some peopole just don't want to get it.}

SIMSHALOM: Torah, they over-stepped their bounds. There were in fact large numbers of Jews who adopted a melding of Judaism and Greek science and their greatest thinker was Philo, not considered to be part of
the Torah mainstream, then or now]]

Scientist: {Philo does seem to have been an observant Jew, but his philosophy is clearly not mainstream, then or now. I was amazed at the similarity of Philo's philosophy to that of some of the early Christian writings, especially Paul.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Yes you are correct, India was granted its independence in 1947, so was Israel. However, in Israel's case the British only WITHDREW in and then it became free in 1948.

Scientist: {Good distinction. Mountbattan assisted in the setup of both the states of India and Pakistan. In the British mandate, they just ran. Of course, we helped chase them out!}

SIMSHALOM: Freedom for the slaves;

Scientist: Sadly, religious Jews for the most part did not oppose slavery in the United States. Some of us even profited from the slave trade.

SIMSHALOM: [["Some of US???" Who are they? Where are they?

Scientist: {The adl's web site lists five by name in a brief essay by David Brion Davis of Yale: The Belmontes in Amsterdam, Gradis and Mendez in Bordeaux, and Aaron Lopez and Jacob Rivera in Newport. However, Professor Davis concludes that these small number of Jews were "far outnumbered by the thousands of Catholics and Protestants who flocked to share in the great bonanza."}

SIMSHALOM: "religious Jews did not oppose slavery"???Does that imply that non-religious ones did oppose it?

Scientist: {Unfortuately, the only really loud Jewish voice against slavery in the US before the Civil War was the radical Reform Rabbi David Einhorn. His Orthodox counterpart in Baltimore during the 1850s, Rabbi Bernard Illowy, was openly pro-secession and opposed taking "forcibly a slave from a master." Both left Baltimore at the outbreak of the Civil War -- Einhorn to Philadelphia (his
congregation didn't like his anti-slavery views, Illowy to New Orleans (he wanted a more uniformly pro-slavery congregation).
Another pro-slavery Orthodox rabbi was Rabbi Morris Raphall in New York. See http://www.jewish-history.com/raphall.html; http://www.jewish-history.com/einhorn.html has Einhorn's response.
One of the few Orthodox anti slavery voices was Michael Heilprin, who was not a rabbi; see http://www.jewish-history.com/heilprin.html. I am amazed at the Orthodox pro-slavery positions; slavery in the United States did NOT follow Torah principles! In almost everything else, Einhorn was probably a complete apikoros, but in this
particular issue he stumbled onto the right position.}

SIMSHALOM: say "religious Jews" I wonder who you mean? In the United States until the Civil War, the few thousand Jews around, mostly assimilated Sephardim originally from Spain, some from England and a trickle started coming from Germany, were NOT what we would call "religious" today. Even though they had built some synagogues, many had already
started intermarrying. See a story at:

Scientist: {This is not true; German Jews started immigrating to the United States in large numbers during the 1830s. And the Sefardim who were here in colonial times were definitely Orthodox; two of their congregations still exist as Orthodox congregations to this day, in New York and Philadelphia. Most of the Askenazic congregations the German Jews founded are Reform today, and most of the rest are Conservative -- and that includes the congregations led by Rabbis Rice (see below), Illowy, and Raphall. One can seriously argue that those few "mostly assimilated Sefardim" have adhered to the tradition more successfully than us Askenazim.}

SIMSHALOM: The most famous example is Judah Benjamin (1811-1884), the Confederate Secretary of War and then State who married a Catholic woman from the South.

Scientist: {Agreed, but Judah Benjamin was one of the first Jews in America to grow up in a Reform synagogue!}

SIMSHALOM: They had no full time yeshivas,

Scientist: {Not exactly true. There were Orthodox Day Schools in New York, Philadelphia, and Baltimore. An American Jew, Judah Rosewald, was given semicha in 1860 by Rabbis Rice and Illowy.}

SIMSHALOM: hardly any learned clergy,

Scientist: {This was a major problem. The first Rabbi to settle permanently in the US was Rabbi A.J. Rice in 1840. There were learned clergy before Rabbi Rice without semicha -- Ministers Gershon Mendes Sexias and Isaac Leeser come to mind -- but it is clear that the Rabbis of Europe blew it by not sending more learned people to America. When massive Jewish immigration to American from Eastern Europe finally began about 1880, 80% of congregations in the US were Reform, and most of the others were Conservative.}

SIMSHALOM: their own freedoms from the Ghettos. Eventually they were all murdered in the Holocaust.]]

Scientist: {Not the ones who got out! Nor the Jews of Britain, or Bulgaria, or Turkey, or Denmark, or Finland.}

SIMSHALOM: (Remember any of these?: The "theory" that "meteor showers" killed out the bumbling dinosaurs billions of years ago as they foraged for food in swamps that sucked them under forever?

Scientist: The dinosaurs weren't all that bumbling; many didn't live in swamps, and there is an awful lot of evidence for that theory.

SIMSHALOM: [[Ok, so here is the famous question: Has ANY scientist EVER met and examined a LIVING dinosaur?

Scientist: {Most scientists today identify birds as the descendents of dinosaurs, so the answer would be yes. But a better answer to your point is that a zoologist can describe an animal's physiology from its skeletal anatomy very accurately.}

SIMSHALOM: quantifiable millions of times over. In halachah, "evidence" means TWO kosher sane adult male witnesses who have OBSERVED the fact happening WITH THEIR OWN EYES AND EARS, otherwise it is inadmissible, not even just "hearsay" (in the case of humans) and certainly when an alleged set of events is "theorized" to have happened billions of years ago, by the Torah's own legal standards the dinosaurs can stay in the movies where they belong.]]

Scientist: {This would disqualify much scientific knowledge, as there is a principle that if we can't see it with the unaided eye, it does not exist from a halachic standpoint. Otherwise, we would never be able to eat anything because there are always small invertibrates that infect almost all food! You clearly don't deny the existance of microorganisms because we can't see them with the unaided eye. Thus much of our halachic tradition can't address many scientific issues, just as science has relatively little to teach us about morality and ethics.}

SIMSHALOM: is in front of their noses. Some start with the Middle Ages, and others look at English Common Law

Scientist: English Common Law is dramatically different from Torah Law. It is much less flexible in practice.

SIMSHALOM: [[Events in English Law and history are often held up as examples of "progress", like the Magna Carta. My reference in the essay was just to show that even though great developments may have happened in other nations' legal histories, for the Jews, greater legally significant events in a similar vein had already occurred thousands
of years earlier.]]

Scientist: {Agreed. Disraeli is reputed to have made this point rather well in the 19th century!}

SIMSHALOM: [[Has ANYONE "observed" a Neanderthal "man" turning into "Joe Smith" yet? >

Scientist: {It is not believed that Neanderthal man "turned into" modern man; there are known cases in which Neanderthals lived side by side with anatomically modern Homo Sapiens for tens of thousands of years. a waiting period. }

SIMSHALOM: We are not talking about looking into a petrie dish with an atomic microscope that studies "nano-microbes", and we are not talking "cross-breeding" that farmers have always been able to do when the need arises, as proven by the mule. Has anyone seen tails grow shorter and become the human spine? Have we seen cold blooded fish become warm blooded mammals or vice versa yet? You know, most of us cannot buy into answers that require a waiting period of a million years or more.It is science itself that would, and should, require more intellectual honesty and humility.]]

Scientist: {Refusing to "buy into" things that are beyond your paradigm? Please examine for yourself if this is truly intellectually honest and humble. As a working scientist, I know that there are many things I will never understand. I can not afford to automatically rule out anything. I can name several areas for which we have needed to rewrite textbooks just in my lifetime: plate tectonics in geology, stomach ulcers and liver cancer caused by infections, and the ability of stem cells to generate neurons in adult humans are three of them. None of them made sense in the old paradigms. But those of us who used to teach the old orthodoxy accepted the new explanations when the facts became clear.In any case, there are examples in which existing species (whatever that term means) seem to have evolved naturally into something rather different during human times. }

SIMSHALOM: Accepting the notion that life evolved over "millions" of years from amoebas;

Scientist: This is a misstatement of currently accepted scientific understanding; amoebas are clearly NOT the beginnings of life as they are rather complex microorganisms (eukaryotes) that appeared rather late in the evolutionary process.

SIMSHALOM: [[I am obviously not a trained biologist or whatever, however my point is to point out the extreme difficulty with accepting the evolutionist doctrines.]]

Scientist: {I appreciate the difficulty in accepting the possibility of a
different paradigm.}

Scientist: In addition, much of the Christian world realized (correctly) that there is no conflict between religion and science; the Church of England did so in the late 19th century. Even the Catholic Church finally rehabilitated Galileo a few years ago. For the religious Jewish perspective, see below.

SIMSHALOM: [[The Christian world is the least original theological movement that has ever existed in human history. They "hijacked" another religion, i.e. Judaism, and re-wrote the script with a "New Edition" and a story to legitimize their actions. Sorry they have no credibility as far as Judaism is concerned.

Scientist: {I was responding to your statement that seemed to include other religions.}

SIMSHALOM: That is why they are a different religion. Religion should remain focused on its main "job" the teaching of morality. The NORMATIVE Domain is the realm of morality and religion.]]

Scientist: {I think that may limit religion too greatly. In any case, I agree that Judiasm and Christianity differ rather greatly in some moral and ethical teachings and that ours are the credible ones; see the dispute over medical research using fetal stem cells and therapeutic cloning, for example.}

SIMSHALOM: a who lived within their society beginning with the >REVELATION and the giving of the Torah at Mount Sinai in >the Hebrew year 2448 (1312 B.C.E.) more than 3,300 years >ago!

Scientist: The exact date of the giving of the Torah is difficult to ascertain.

SIMSHALOM: [[It is NOT. For example, see the Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan Chumash on page 22, with year of Exodus and giving of Torah as 2448 on the Hebrew calendar.(Moses died 40 years later on 2488, even Judaism101 mentions it http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm ) These are derived from reliable sources. It's not a "hit or miss" thing with a range of "billions" of years after all.]]

Scientist: {This chonology is from the Sefer Seder Olam, which is problematic. It is missing about 160 years from about the time of David HaMelech to about the time of Alexander the Great. To give an example of the difficulty, we have continuous Greek records from the 6th century BCE that clearly show that the Babylonian Empire was overthrown by the Persians during that century. We know that the Greeks defeated the Persians, not the Assyrians or the Babylonians, in the battle of Marathon and Salamis, but the Rabbinic chronology would not permit that. Israeli authorities don't use the Seder Olam. For example they celebrated the 3000th anniversary of the City of Jerusalem just a few years ago; according to the Rabbinic sources we would need to wait about 150 more years. (Of course, both our tradition and archeology clearly state that Jerusalem is much older than 3000 years; the "birthday" was the conquest by David HaMelech.)}


SIMSHALOM: "VE-EILEH". The famous rabbinical commentator RASHI, >Rabbi Shlomoh ben Yitzchaki (France, 1040 - 1105) teaches: "Wherever 'these are' -

SIMSHALOM: [[I do not follow your reasoning about RASHI. I do not think that Rashi was giving "approbations" to Darwin's theories.

Scientist: {Of course not! Rashi lived 700 years earlier!!! And Darwin's theories aren't really the issue here; he was wrong on a number of details. What matters is that evolutionary biology explains
more, and better, than any alternative.}

SIMSHALOM: As for Rabbi Dr. Hertz. he was a great man in his time a hundred years ago, but by now, most Orthodox synagogues have replaced his
commentary with that of ArtScroll's texts.Yes I agree with you, Dr.

Scientist: {This is news to me -- I don't think I've ever failed to find Rabbi Dr. Hertz's commentary in any Orthodox shul when I've tried to locate it.}

SIMSHALOM: Hertz did make some brilliant arguments explaining Judaism, however he is no more than a popular writer. He is NOT regarded as a definitive halachik source or authority for anything in Judaism. As an example,

Science: {This isn't really about halachah, it is about science and history -- or more precisely, pre-history.}

SIMSHALOM: compare his Hertz's writings with the Chofetz Chaim who lived at the same time. An serious Orthodox layperson and scholar knows that the Chofetz Chaim's teachings and guidelines are very important to follow,

Science: {Agreed -- although my own Rabbi has personally given me psak's that are counter to those of the Chofetz Chaim.}

SIMSHALOM: and very few today have any knowledge that Rabbi Hertz even existed.]]

Scientist: {That is sad if it is true. We of all people should know our history!}

SIMSHALOM: [[I am not discounting secular learning. By the way, in the yeshiva world, the word "learning" is only used in connection with Torah, whereas one "studies" or takes "courses" or "credits" or does "research' at college. Classical Judaism obliges its followers to accept and believe that there is CHOCHMA among the gentiles. Thus secularly trained and even gentile doctors aware trusted for the most sensitive life and death operations. But one must know that in Judaism the TORAH is supreme and reigns way and above anything the secular world can ever produce, which is quite flattering to the Torah and Judaism and that is certainly something to be proud of.]]

Scientist: {I can't argue with this! There are indeed things in Torah that pre-date secular wisdom by years, centuries, millenia. For example, I've shocked educators by showing them Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch's explanation of why Esav and Yaakov turned out so differently; it is very similar to, but predated modern theories of education by decades. And the laws in this week's parsha were indeed an advance over the rest of the world for its time -- and even today. I was called to jury duty recently and felt a need to talk with my Rabbi as to what to do; I was concerned about the secular legal system in that its punishments are generally far more severe than the Jewish legal code. In particular, our tradition does not approve of imprisonment for financial crimes, and the standard of conviction in capital cases is far lower in the United States than in Torah. I wonder whether the non-Jewish world is indeed as advanced as we think it is.}

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---PART FOUR---

---In PART FOUR: SIMSHALOM responds to the Scientist's previous response, with reference to their earlier words---

SIMSHALOM: Hi, I have just received the following message fom the moderator, and so I am forwarding the last message with my responses. Best wishes, Shalom:

"B"H
I think it's time this discussion went off-list.
Kol tuv
moderator"

Subject: Re: Critique of "Parshat Mishpatim"

Scientist: {I have been a working scientist for quite some time; mostly at non-Jewishinstitutions. I think I am in a better position to judge this}

SIMSHALOM: [[Of course yes, you are on the inside track, but it does not mean that the"world at large" must remain "silent" or be intimidated by scientists who are mere mortals after all and not "gods"...It is not just a matter of "science", but also of world-view, mentality, respect for religion and for Jews, Judaism and their God, something which THEY are surely in NO position to "judge". And if scientists as a group tend to be athiestic, lacking "YIRAT SHAMAYIM", we can be very supicious of ANYTHING they may try to get over us "less learned" plebians]]

SIMSHALOM: example, I know for a fact that some rabbis supported (all) the 1917Revolutions in Russia, but when they saw that the stated ideals were onlylater cynically abused and trampled that they realized they made a big
mistake.

Scientist: {Not obviously true. The Bolsheviks stopped the pogroms. Had the "whites"won the Shoah could have taken place in the Ukraine in 1921. Of course,Stalin killed more people than Hitler.}

SIMSHALOM: [[This is an amazingly fanciful "projection" of a very rosy "liberal" viewof history. In history there are no "ifs". The Bolsheviks may have stoppedthe _CZARS'_ pogroms, but they sure instituted waves of their own even WORSE mass killings. The "jewish" Trotsky killed untold thousands of his opponents, be they Jewish or not. Then the Bolsheviks killed out thousands of "Mensheviks" be they jewish or not, followed by Stalin's purges and killings of millions of soldiers and communist part members including many formerly loyal Jewish cadres, including who knows how many Jews all over the vast territory of the USSR. The worst part, is the total onslaught to eradicate JUDAISM in all its forms, a communist anti-Semitism of the worst form, aimed at murdering the SPIRIT of Yiddishkeit, Zionism and banning Torah practice. Allowing the "body" to live as they methodically and quickly STRANGLED the soul. Traditionally considered a fate worse than death in Judaism.]]

SIMSHALOM: And today I know of NO well known Torah authority who would claim that theCommunist Revolution and Era was any good for the Jewish people in the USSRor beyond.

Scientist: {Well, Stalin DID recognize the State of Israel hours after it declared independence, and it was the new Communist government of Czechoslovakia that ran guns to the Haganah in 1948 when everyone else(including the United States) was prepared to see defenseless Jews massacred by the invading armies. I don't know if "Torah authorities" have noted that or not, but even a total rasha like Stalin can accomplish SOME good. His armies also put an end to Hitler.(Note that I treat the establishment of the State of Israel as a good thing; most "Torah authorities" of the time were sceptical to hostile. Some still are to this
day.) }

SIMSHALOM: [[Please do NOT mock Torah Authorities, they really do exist! They determinethe direction of torah life and living in the USA and Israel. No-one lovesEretz Yisrael more than the Chachamim of the Torah, then and now, as they know its TRUE worth!Stalin recognized Israel out of REALPOLITIK, and NOT out of any love for Jews or Judaism. On the contrary, behind the scenes he was plotting his own Holocaust against them, culminating in the so-called "doctors plot" and his wicked plans were only ended by his sudden death in 1953. He gave guns to his "jewish" communist and socialist co-horts in Israel because he was using them as pawns in his greater struggle against the British.As Stalin got older he became more rabidly anti-Semitic. So anyhow, Jews had been wasting their time and lives supporting such a treacherous cut-throat. Just as liberals have been forgotten and even betrayed by the Black masses in America for all their activism. In fact now there is the worrying rise of Black anti-Semitism especially from the popular Nation of Islam.]]

SIMSHALOM: As for the Sefardim, you have to know them, but their viewof "themselves" as "orthodox" is NOT what we would today call Orthodox, or Dati or Modern Orthodox. A lot of the Sefardim were descendants of families that had once "acted" Christian in Spain, but after moving to England or Holland some of them claimed to be Jewish again.

Scientist: {I think this is a slander against these Sefardim and you shouldretract it. The history is that most of the ancestors you mention were forcibly converted in Portugal. They didn't even get the choice of martyrdom! Many got out to the Netherlands as quickly as they could, at which time they immediately resumed practicing Judaism. They were definitely Jewish.}

SIMSHALOM: [[You admit yourself that many of these people were under the influence ofChristianity at one point. Are these the same people, i.e. "orthodox" Jews,that you also claimed "supported" slavery in the south? If so, how does one know if their pro-slavery attitudes are derived from Christianity or from a Judaism they may have forgotten or been forced to abandon and perhaps relearnt in a faulty manner? Furthermore, the entire question of "switching back and forth" religiously is a tough one HALACHICALLY speaking as it is very questionable whether once a Jew has accepted Christianity, under whatever guise, that they can just "switch back" to being "Jewish" as if nothing happened. You need a qualified Beth Din to decide the matter. It's far more complex than saying "ok it's Monday, I guess we're Jewish now" (because Sunday they maybe went to Church), as there are questions about what degree of TESHUVAH that is required from the formerly APOSTATE Jews to accept them back into Klal Yisrael. It is a nightmare situation for the people involved and for the rabbis who have to re-welcome and certify them back into the body of Halachik Judaism and the Jewish people. It is probably more difficult than a case of regular conversion whereby a gentile abandons their native Christianity and accepts the "Yoke of Heaven" completely. There is no point in getting "emotional" and suddenly "go ballistic", as nothing is "definite" once people practice Christianity for a number of years. Apologize to who? The dead sefardim of the south?]]

SIMSHALOM: Even today, a Sefardi Jew will not keep Shabbat yet callhimself "Orthodox",

Scientist: {I have seen this among Ashkenazim as well; I have a conceptual difficultywith the whole idea of "non-observant Orthodox" -- but it seems to beaccepted in much of the Jewish world. My difficulty may have something to do
with my Protestant upbringing.}

SIMSHALOM: [[What "Protestant" upbringing??? Do you still practice it now???]]

SIMSHALOM: colonial system for any education was not organized and the public schools themselves had not become widespread yet. It was more of a

Scientist: {Public schools were widespread in New England during colonial times; I canname schools that date from 1640 or before. But Jews weren't around backthen.}

SIMSHALOM: [[What you may label "public schools" in early New England were poorly runchurch parochial schools, many mostly one room operations. Horace Mann, d.1859 fought for a better system of public schooling but only as the massesof immigrants started arriving in their tens of millions in the late 1800s did states get really serious. So for the most part education during civil war times was scatter-shot and probably most people were functionally illiterate if not completely so.]]

SIMSHALOM: from about 1870 to 1930 about six million Jew came to North America, andthen there

Scientist: {*A Historical Atlas of the Jewish People*, Eli Barnavi, editor,gives a number of 2,090,000 for total Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe to North America from 1881 to 1914, plus another 465,000 between 1915 and 1931.}

SIMSHALOM: [[It's acknowledged by Jewish organizations that at the outbreak of WorldWar Two in 1939 there were probably over SIX million Jews in North America(including Canada). That was just an ESTIMATE. So either the population morethan doubled by 1939 or there were a lot more Jews hidden in the "woodwork". Remember, the historical tendency of the Jews in America is to relatively QUICKLY assimilate, secularize, become baptized into Christian Churches through social pressure or through marriage to Christians, and because America was the wild west for a long time, it is essentially impossible to come up with accurate figures, and the ranges may be very wide, as even in the most recent population surveys that estimate there may be anywhere between four to eight million Jews in America DEPENDING ON YOUR CRITERIA.]]

SIMSHALOM: [[BIRDS??? really now , that is an amazing theory? Now how in heavens namedid TWO TON monsters become canaries and hummingbirds?]]

Scientist: {HaShem. He created the evolutionary process.

SIMSHALOM: [[Hashem has better things to do than validate Darwin's theories rooted in Agnosticism and Heresy.]]

Scientist: Very shortly after Darwin predicted in *The Origin of Species* that fossilswould be found that were intermediate between existing animal groups, theshocking discovery of the fossil of Archaeopteryx lithographica. See
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html for a brief summary of the history and the evidence. This was the kind of evidence that showed the predictive power of Darwin's theories, which had been based purely on descriptive observation.}

SIMSHALOM: [[I think P.T. Barnum had it right when he declared that "There is a suckerborn every minute."]]

SIMSHALOM: [[This, again, is science laying down mine fields and smoke screens in thename of helping humanity when they could be doing better hings (cost-efficient and time efficient) that will help larger chunks of humanity on average. They have a "yetzer hara" (weakness) to get into esoteric stuff when we need their energies and services for more practical uses that will help more people, I think...]]

Scientist: {Again, I think I have a better perspective here. I am sure that you (andeveryone else) would have thought that bread mold was pretty useless back in the 1920s.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Mould we can see but dinosaurs we can't. Sure, everyone is entitled to their perspective, even the Creationists, right?]]

SIMSHALOM: [[NU, so what's wrong with Seder Olam, it's a reliable source used byTorah Jews....If the Greeks have different dates...I would say to you: "BEWARE OF GREEKS BEARING GIFTS !"]]

Scientist: {It isn't that the Greeks have different dates so much as they have continuous records from that time that have been continuously preserved. We don't. To cite one example, Herodotus writes about the successors of Cyrus -- Cambyses, Darius, and Xerxes-- but according to the Seder Olam he would have lived before the destruction of the first temple by the Bablyonian Empire that Cyrus helped end. That is a problem! Compounding the problem is that there are Persian sources that confirm much of his writing -- in particular the accession of Darius is on the famous Behustan rock. BTW I strongly recommend Herodotus. It is fabulously well written. And his story of Croesus, King of Lydia, should be taught in every school. It could easily have been a Rabbinic midrash -- the goyim sometimes stumbled onto Torah principles! Herodotus shows how small and apparently insignificant we were back then; we are not mentioned by name but just as a group of Syrians who observed circumcision.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Look, your average Torah scholar is not told by his Rabbis to study thesources you mention. In fact they probably would ban such a student fromtheir Yeshiva, or tell him to burn his books. So I think it's best not to mix the ancient half-mythological histories of the dead civilizations with their dubious self-serving histories of their ruling classes, most of whom
either hated or persecuted Jews, with Torah learning wherein we have the TANACH, TALMUD, and a voluminous and rich LIVING TORAH LEGACY and great REBBEIM and TALMIDEI CHACHAMIM that we can learn from and enjoy here in now.]]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---PART FIVE---

---In PART FIVE: The Scientist gives responses to SIMSHALOM's previous replies---

Scientist: Responses in {}...

Subject: Last response...

SIMSHALOM: Hi, I have just received the following message fom the moderator, and so I am forwarding the last message with my responses. Best wishes, Shalom:

"B"H
I think it's time this discussion went off-list.

Scientist: {Agreed.}

Subject: Re: Critique of "Parshat Mishpatim"

Scientist: {I have been a working scientist for quite some time; mostly at non-Jewish institutions. I think I am in a better position to judge this}

SIMSHALOM: [[Of course yes, you are on the inside track, but it does not mean that the "world at large" must remain "silent" or be intimidated by scientists who are mere mortals after all and not "gods"...It is not just a matter of "science", but also of world-view, mentality, respect for religion and for Jews, Judaism and their God, something which THEY are surely in NO position to "judge". And if scientists as a group tend to be athiestic, lacking "YIRAT SHAMAYIM", we can be very supicious of ANYTHING they may try to get over us "less learned" plebians]]

Scientist: {My point was that most scientists are NOT atheistic, at least in the United States.}

SIMSHALOM: example, I know for a fact that some rabbis supported (all) the 1917 Revolutions in Russia, but when they saw that the stated ideals were only later cynically abused and trampled that they realized they made a big mistake.

Scientist: {Not obviously true. The Bolsheviks stopped the pogroms. Had the "whites" won the Shoah could have taken place in the Ukraine in 1921. Of course, Stalin killed more people than Hitler.}

SIMSHALOM: [[This is an amazingly fanciful "projection" of a very rosy "liberal" view of history. In history there are no "ifs". The Bolsheviks may have stopped the _CZARS'_ pogroms,

Scientist: {And the pogroms of the pro-Czarist forces in 1921 after the Czar was dead; I have seen figures of 100,000 Jews dead in the Ukraine alone in the early 1920s before the Bolsheviks consolidated their rule (and shot all the instigators of the pogroms).}

SIMSHALOM: but they sure instituted waves of their own even WORSE mass killings. The "jewish" Trotsky killed untold thousands of his opponents, be they Jewish or not. Then the Bolsheviks killed out thousands of "Mensheviks" be they jewish or not, followed by Stalin's purges and

Scientist: {You forgot the Cadets!}

SIMSHALOM: killings of millions of soldiers and communist part members including many formerly loyal Jewish cadres, including who knows how many Jews all over the vast territory of the USSR. The worst part, is the total onslaught to eradicate JUDAISM in all its forms, a communist anti-Semitism of the worst form, aimed at murdering the SPIRIT of Yiddishkeit, Zionism and banning Torah practice. Allowing the "body" to live as they methodically and quickly STRANGLED the soul. Traditionally considered a fate worse than death in Judaism.]]

Scientist: {Ironically their racism was what prevented the eradication of Judiasm; the classification of all Soviet citizens by nationality was for many the only tie they had with Yiddishkeit. And many of those Jews are practicing Judiasm today.}

SIMSHALOM: And today I know of NO well known Torah authority who would claim that the Communist Revolution and Era was any good for the Jewish people in the USSR or beyond.

Scientist: {Well, Stalin DID recognize the State of Israel hours after it declared independence, and it was the new Communist government of Czechoslovakia that ran guns to the Haganah in 1948 when everyone else(including the United States) was prepared to see defenseless Jews massacred by the invading armies. I don't know if "Torah authorities" have noted that or not, but even a total rasha like Stalin can accomplish SOME good. His armies also put an end to Hitler.(Note that I treat the establishment of the State of Israel as a good thing; most "Torah authorities" of the time were sceptical to hostile. Some still are to this day.) }

SIMSHALOM: [[Please do NOT mock Torah Authorities, they really do exist!

Scientist: {I wasn't denying that.}

SIMSHALOM: They determine the direction of Torah life and living in the USA and Israel. No-one loves

Scientist: {This is partly true; much of the Torah-observant world rejects or severely limits the scope of "Daat Torah".}

SIMSHALOM: Eretz Yisrael more than the Chachamim of the Torah, then and now, as they know its TRUE worth!

Scientist: {But it remains a fact that the large majority of Rabbis opposed the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, which was my point.}

SIMSHALOM: Stalin recognized Israel out of REALPOLITIK, and NOT out of any love for Jews or Judaism.

Scientist: {True.}

SIMSHALOM: On the contrary, behind the scenes he was plotting his own Holocaust against them, culminating in the so-called "doctors plot" and his wicked plans were only ended by his sudden death in 1953. He gave guns to his "jewish" communist and socialist co-horts in Israel because he was using them as pawns in his greater struggle against the British.

Scientist: {Not true. For one thing, the Brits were themselves devout socialists! But the main reason was that the provisional government had pledged to make Stalin the largest landowner in Israel by giving him control over the land held by the Russian Orthodox Church, an agreement Israel kept. }

SIMSHALOM: As Stalin got older he became more rabidly anti-Semitic.

Scientist: {I'm not sure he ever wasn't.}

SIMSHALOM: So anyhow, Jews had been wasting their time and lives supporting such a treacherous cut-throat. Just as

Scientist: {No argument there, but without that deal on the Church lands, 600,000 Jews would have been massacred by the Arabs.}

SIMSHALOM: liberals have been forgotten and even betrayed by the Black masses in America for all their activism. In fact now there is the worrying rise of Black anti-Semitism especially from the popular Nation of Islam.

Scientist: {The Nation of Islam has a few tens of thousands of members. As Cornel West once said, that is equal to the membership of a few churches in Brooklyn. With those kinds of numbers, they just can't be called popular. And here in New York City where I live, black politicians jump up and down all over to outdo each other in their support for Israel and Jewish causes. They can't wait to speak at pro-Israel rallies. And this is NOT because they have Jewish constituents; most of them represent all-Black districts. One example is Congressman Charlie Rangel, who has been a HUGE supporter of Israel for over 30 years. He considered it a slap in the face when three Jewish U.S. Senators (all Republicans) voted against the Martin Luther King holiday bill in the 1980s -- especially when Dr. King himself had been such a tremendous supporter of Jews and of Israel. This is also true for many Hispanic leaders; my local Jewish Community Council is honoring a local Hispanic state senator at our annual banquet this year for his support.}

SIMSHALOM: As for the Sefardim, you have to know them, but their view of "themselves" as "orthodox" is NOT what we would today call Orthodox, or Dati or Modern Orthodox. A lot of the Sefardim were descendants of families that had once "acted" Christian in Spain, but after moving to England or Holland some of them claimed to be Jewish again.

Scientist: {I think this is a slander against these Sefardim and you should retract it. The history is that most of the ancestors you mention were forcibly converted in Portugal. They didn't even get the choice of martyrdom! Many got out to the Netherlands as quickly as they could, at which time they immediately resumed practicing Judaism. They were definitely Jewish.}

SIMSHALOM: [[You admit yourself that many of these people were under the influence of Christianity at one point. Are these the same people, i.e. "orthodox" Jews, that you also claimed "supported" slavery in the south? If so, how does one

Scientist: {Rabbis Raphall and Ilowy were Ashkenazic, with solid unquestionable semicha from Europe.}

SIMSHALOM: know if their pro-slavery attitudes are derived from Christianity or from a Judaism they may have forgotten or been forced to abandon and perhaps relearnt in a faulty manner? Furthermore, the entire question of "switching back and forth" religiously is a tough one HALACHICALLY speaking as it is very questionable whether once a Jew has accepted Christianity, under whatever guise, that they can just "switch back" to being "Jewish" as if nothing happened. You need a qualified Beth Din to decide the matter. It's far more complex than saying "ok it's Monday, I guess we're Jewish now" (because Sunday they maybe went to Church), as there are questions about what degree of TESHUVAH that is required from the formerly APOSTATE Jews to accept them back into Klal Yisrael. It is a nightmare situation for the people involved and for the rabbis who have to re-welcome and certify them back into the body of Halachik Judaism and the Jewish people. It is probably more difficult than a case of regular conversion whereby a gentile abandons their native Christianity and accepts the "Yoke of Heaven" completely.

Scientist: {I am aware of this in part because I know rabbis who serve on such beit dins. But by 1654, the date of the arrival of the first Jews in New Amsterdam, there was no question as to the Jewishness of the settlers.}

SIMSHALOM: There is no point in getting "emotional" and suddenly "go ballistic", as nothing is "definite" once people practice Christianity for a number of years. Apologize to who? The dead sefardim of the south?]]

Scientist: {The Jews who laid the groundwork for Judiasm to thrive in the United States. Look, Shearith Israel dates to 1654. It has always been Orthodox. It is today. I've found no Ashkenazic synagogue in existence today in the United States that is older than 1852. It would have been quite possible for the United States to have banned non-Christians -- several colonies did. But the participation by these early Sefardim in Newport, New York, Philadelphia, Charleston, and Savannah in the civic life of the new land made it possible for the new nation to realize that a non-Christian could be a good citizen. As a result more Jews live in the United States today than have lived in one country at any point in history.}

SIMSHALOM: Even today, a Sefardi Jew will not keep Shabbat yet call himself "Orthodox",

Scientist: {I have seen this among Ashkenazim as well; I have a conceptual difficulty with the whole idea of "non-observant Orthodox" -- but it seems to be accepted in much of the Jewish world. My difficulty may have something to do with my Protestant upbringing.}

SIMSHALOM: [[What "Protestant" upbringing???

Scientist: {I grew up Protestant Christian.}

SIMSHALOM: Do you still practice it now???]]

Scientist: {Of course not! I renounced all former religions when I became Jewish.}

SIMSHALOM: colonial system for any education was not organized and the public schools themselves had not become widespread yet. It was more of a

Scientist: {Public schools were widespread in New England during colonial times; I can name schools that date from 1640 or before. But Jews weren't around back then.}

SIMSHALOM: [[What you may label "public schools" in early New England were poorly run church parochial schools, many mostly one room operations. Horace Mann, d.

Scientist: {Things were actually better in colonial times than in Horace Mann's time. The Puritans were VERY serious about education. But when New England separated Church and State between 1807 and 1833 (Rhode Island was the exception; they had never had an official church) the lack of church leadership meant a rapid drop in quality.}

SIMSHALOM: 1859 fought for a better system of public schooling but only as the masses of immigrants started arriving in their tens of millions in the late 1800s did states get really serious. So for the most part education during civil war times was scatter-shot and probably most people were functionally illiterate if not completely so.]]

Scientist: {Things were far worse in the south; Virginia didn't get a statewide public school system until after Reconstruction.}

SIMSHALOM: from about 1870 to 1930 about six million Jew came to North America, and then there

Scientist: {*A Historical Atlas of the Jewish People*, Eli Barnavi, editor, gives a number of 2,090,000 for total Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe to North America from 1881 to 1914, plus another 465,000 between 1915 and 1931.}

SIMSHALOM: [[It's acknowledged by Jewish organizations that at the outbreak of World War Two in 1939 there were probably over SIX million Jews in North America (including Canada). That was just an ESTIMATE. So either the population more than doubled by 1939 or there were a lot more Jews hidden in the "woodwork".

Scientist: {Doubling in 35 years requires a 2% annual growth rate. Not unreasonable. And remember there were already over 200,000 Jews here as of 1880.}

SIMSHALOM: Remember, the historical tendency of the Jews in America is to relatively QUICKLY assimilate, secularize, become baptized into Christian Churches through social pressure or through marriage to Christians, and

Scientist: {Not true. Intermarriage was rare and conversion almost unheard of in the U.S. a hundred years ago.}

SIMSHALOM: because America was the wild west for a long time, it is essentially impossible to come up with accurate figures, and the ranges may be very wide, as even in the most recent population surveys that estimate there may be anywhere between four to eight million Jews in America DEPENDING ON YOUR CRITERIA.]]

SIMSHALOM: [[BIRDS??? really now , that is an amazing theory? Now how in heavens name did TWO TON monsters become canaries and hummingbirds?]]

Scientist: {HaShem. He created the evolutionary process.

SIMSHALOM: [[Hashem has better things to do than validate Darwin's theories rooted in Agnosticism and Heresy.]]

Scientist: {As Niels Bohr is reported to have said to Albert Einstein, "Stop telling God what to do." ;=) }

Scientist: Very shortly after Darwin predicted in *The Origin of Species* that fossils would be found that were intermediate between existing animal groups, the shocking discovery of the fossil of Archaeopteryx lithographica. See http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html for a brief summary of the history and the evidence. This was the kind of evidence that showed the predictive power of Darwin's theories, which had been based purely on descriptive observation.}

SIMSHALOM: [[I think P.T. Barnum had it right when he declared that "There is a sucker born every minute."]]

Scientist: {Are you saying that the Archaeopteryx fossils are fradulent?}

SIMSHALOM: [[This, again, is science laying down mine fields and smoke screens in the name of helping humanity when they could be doing better hings (cost-efficient and time efficient) that will help larger chunks of humanity on average. They have a "yetzer hara" (weakness) to get into esoteric stuff when we need their energies and services for more practical uses that wil help more people, I think...]]

Scientist: {Again, I think I have a better perspective here. I am sure that you (and everyone else) would have thought that bread mold was pretty useless back in the 1920s.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Mould we can see but dinosaurs we can't. Sure, everyone is entitled to their perspective, even the Creationists, right?]]

Scientist: {That one is entitled to their perspective doesn't make them right. Nor does it even mean that it should be considered. That is relativism. That is contrary to Torah.}

SIMSHALOM: [[NU, so what's wrong with Seder Olam, it's a reliable source used by Torah Jews....If the Greeks have different dates...I would say to you: "BEWARE OF GREEKS BEARING GIFTS !"]]

Scientist: {It isn't that the Greeks have different dates so much as they have continuous records from that time that have been continuously preserved. We don't. To cite one example, Herodotus writes about the successors of Cyrus -- Cambyses, Darius, and Xerxes-- but according to the Seder Olam he would have lived before the destruction of the first temple by the Bablyonian Empire that Cyrus helped end. That is a problem! Compounding the problem is that there are Persian sources thatconfirm much of his writing -- in particular the accession of Darius is on the famous Behustan rock. BTW I strongly recommend Herodotus. It is fabulously well written. And his story of Croesus, King of Lydia, should be taught in every school. It could easily have been a Rabbinic midrash -- the goyim sometimes stumbled onto Torah principles! Herodotus shows how small and apparently insignificant we were back then; we are not mentioned by name but just as a group of Syrians who observed circumcision.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Look, your average Torah scholar is not told by his Rabbis to study the sources you mention. In fact they probably would ban such a student from their Yeshiva, or tell him to burn his books. So I think it's best not to

Scientist: {We teach stuff like this ... It makes us better Jews when we understand the world around us. And it has a far longer mesorah than the more modern trend to shut out everything the non-Jewish. See Rabbi Saadia Gaon or Rambam or Rabbi Ibn Ezra or Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch or Rabbi Dr. Joseph Soloveitchik, who were all very fluent in the wisdom of the gentiles. Remember that the last time we burned books, it was the works of the Rambam. And we were repaid by having our Talmud burnt -- who other than HaShem knows the magnitude of what was lost; maybe entire tractates of Talmud, entire halachic works by the Tosafists....}

SIMSHALOM: mix the ancient half-mythological histories of the dead civilizations with their dubious self-serving histories of their ruling classes, most of whom

Scientist: {Herodotus work is not mythological but based on solid research, in particular extensive travel. And he pulls no punches. This is not the chonicle of a ruling monarch.}

SIMSHALOM: either hated or persecuted Jews, with Torah learning wherein we have the TANACH, TALMUD, and a voluminous and rich LIVING TORAH LEGACY and great REBBEIM and TALMIDEI CHACHAMIM that we can learn from and enjoy in the here and now.]]

Scientist: {We clearly have a hashgafic disagreement here. I belive, as do my teachers, that learning history and science and philosophy and literature makes us better Jews. This is true for practical reasons (you wouldn't ever go to a physician who learned his medical knowledge from the Talmud), for reasons of survival (most of us need to make a living, and the greatest of our sages such as Rambam opposed studying Torah without a non-Torah source of income), and for philosophical reasons (appreciating the non-Jewish contributions to the world makes us appreciate Torah even more!). }

-------------------------------------------------------

---PART SIX---

---PART SIX: SIMSHALOM's Final responses to the Scientist's last words (with earlier quotes)---

SIMSHALOM: Hi my responses in [[ ]]

Scientist: Responses in {}...

> Subject: Last response...

SIMSHALOM: Hi, I have just received the following message fom the moderator, and so I am forwarding the last message with my responses. Best wishes, Shalom:

> "B"H
> I think it's time this discussion went off-list.

Scientist: {Agreed.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Too bad, just when things were getting interesting. I don't see what the problem was!]]

> Subject: Re: Critique of "Parshat Mishpatim"

Scientist: {I have been a working scientist for quite some time; mostly at non-Jewish institutions. I think I am in a better position to judge this}

SIMSHALOM: [[Of course yes, you are on the inside track, but it does not mean thatthe "world at large" must remain "silent" or be intimidated by scientistswho are mere mortals after all and not "gods"...It is not just a matter of "science", but also of world-view, mentality, respect for religion and for Jews, Judaism and their God, something which THEY are surely in NO position
to "judge". And if scientists as a group tend to be athiestic, lacking "YIRAT SHAMAYIM", we can be very supicious of ANYTHING they may try to get over us "less learned" plebians]]

Scientist: {My point was that most scientists are NOT atheistic, at least in the UnitedStates.}

SIMSHALOM: [[So scientists flock to churches, synagogues and mosques and are devoted believers in God/ Hashem/Allah as the all believe and delve into the Bible/Torah/Koran then??? Seems very far fetched to me. If they are "not athiestic" they are certainly not doing a good job of defending religion against secularism and the secularization of their students.]]

Scientist: won the Shoah could have taken place in the Ukraine in 1921. Of course, Stalin killed more people than Hitler.}

SIMSHALOM: [[This is an amazingly fanciful "projection" of a very rosy "liberal" view of history. In history there are no "ifs". The Bolsheviks may have stopped the _CZARS'_ pogroms,

Scientist: {And the pogroms of the pro-Czarist forces in 1921 after the Czar was dead; I have seen figures of 100,000 Jews dead in the Ukraine alone in the early 1920s before the Bolsheviks consolidated their rule (and shot all the
instigators of the pogroms).}

SIMSHALOM: [[The bolsheviks shot a LOT of people, as tHEIR goal wsa to consolidate their SECULAR revolution that was totally destrctive of Judaism, which is my main argument. Communism, no matter how "noble" its efforts against Fascism was as guilty of heinous anti-Semtic behavior over time as any of the worst anti-Semitic regimes in history. The Bolsheviks institued a reign of death and terror against any opponents and at the hands of the NKVD and the KGB they enforced it ruthlesslesly particularly against Jewish "agitators".]]

SIMSHALOM: the worst form, aimed at murdering the SPIRIT of Yiddishkeit, Zionism and banning Torah practice. Allowing the "body" to live as they methodically and quickly STRANGLED the soul. Traditionally considered a fate worse than death in Judaism.]]

Scientist: {Ironically their racism was what prevented the eradication of Judiasm; the classificationof all Soviet citizens by nationality was for many the only tie they had with Yiddishkeit.And many of those Jews are practicing Judaism
today.}

SIMSHALOM: [[This is "backwards logic". You are "making hay" out of a phenomenon that is always true about Jews: That they respond with more determination to persecution. That is the symbolism of the egg on Passover, it's a food that unlike others gets HARD when you cook it. We don't give "posthumous medals" to Hitler because due to the Holocaust Jews were determined to rebuild Jewish life after the Holocaust, and we likewise DO NOT give Joe Stalin and his team of torturers any "medals" or good words because they put "Hebrew" or "Zhid" on passports ( a form of racism if there ever was one in any case)]]

Scientist: Torah authorities" of the time were sceptical to hostile. Some still are to this day.) }

SIMSHALOM: [[Please do NOT mock Torah Authorities, they really do exist!

Scientist: {I wasn't denying that.}

SIMSHALOM: [[But you WERE revealing a DISDAIN for those type of "ULTRA-ORTHODOX" rabbis that you have not taken a liking to (yet)]]

Scientist: Torah-observant world rejects or severely limits the scope of "Daat Torah".}

SIMSHALOM: [[Oh yea, which segment of the "torah observant" world??? You mean the MOdern Orthodox? Well, they never call themselves "Torah observant", they are "Centrists" or belivers in "Torah Umada" or Dati. Whereas the Haredi Hasidic world is has no problems with the "Torah observant" label and they constitute, togethre with Shas in Israel, the MAJORITY of the the ORTHODOX world ( even tho Haredim hate the word "Orthodox" as a trem invented by the Reformers to besmirch and sideline them.]]

SIMSHALOM: Israel more than the Chachamim of the Torah, then and now, as they know its TRUE worth!

Scientist: {But it remains a fact that the large majority of Rabbis opposed the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, which was my point.}

SIMSHALOM: [[You are going in "over your head" with this issue. Which "majority" are you talking abou?? I am not sure, as the Aguda people were part of Ben Gurion's governments all along. You are talking about debates in "theology" or "hashkafa", but only SATMAR, and they were tiny then, opposed the state's creation.]]

SIMSHALOM: Stalin recognized Israel out of REALPOLITIK, and NOT out of any love for Jews or Judaism.

Scientist: {True.}

SIMSHALOM: On the contrary, behind the scenes he was plotting his own Holocaust against them, culminating in the so-called "doctors plot" and his wicked plans were only ended by his sudden death in 1953. He gave guns to his "jewish" communist and socialist co-horts in Israel because he was
using them as pawns in his greater struggle against the British.

Scientist: {Not true. For one thing, the Brits were themselves devout socialists! But the main reason was that the provisional government had pledged to make Stalin the largest landowner in Israel by giving him control over the land held by the Russian Orthodox Church, an agreement Israel kept. }

SIMSHALOM: [[ The Bristish under Bevin were more Social DEMOCRATS, are far cry from Stalin's TOTALITARIAN communism. I am refering to Russia' age old struggle against Britsih Imperialims which blocked its access to "warm water ports" in the south (and still does, with the USA). I don't think Stalin cared a darn about land in Palestine then, he had moer than enough real estate to digest in Eastern Europe and his moves into China and Korea. The Jews should have confoiscated those church lands as Stalin was not a Chrsitain and what right did he have to take over Church property??]]

SIMSHALOM: rabidly anti-Semitic.

Scientist: {I'm not sure he ever wasn't.}

SIMSHALOM: [[His first wife was Jewish. His brother in law Kogan sat with him on the Politburu till the end. Ther is a rumor that it was Koga who finally killed Stalin, either by poison or shot him isnised the Kremlin. They had violent disagreements about Stalin's plan's to get rid of the Jews, send them to Birobidjan, the "Jewish" land in in mid Russia and the cooked up charges against the Jewish doctors of Russia.]]

SIMSHALOM: anyhow, Jews had been wasting their time and lives supporting such a treacherous cut-throat. Just as

Scientist: {No argument there, but without that deal on the Church lands, 600,000 Jews would have been massacred by the Arabs.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Now, now, again you make a sweeping statement here which is ridiculous. The 600,000 Jews by the GRACE OF GOD survived Rommel's onslaughts, and with the SAME GRACE OF GOD they DEFEATED the Arabs. The hagana was smuggling arms from all over the world which was flooded with post World war Two military equipment. Then the USA became a big conduit. Stalin certainly helped with arms, but the Jews of Isarel would have won that war with or without Stalin's machine guns and bullets, BY GOD'S WILL.]]

SIMSHALOM: liberals have been forgotten and even betrayed by the Black masses in America for all their activism. In fact now there is the worrying rise of Black anti-Semitism especially from the popular Nation of Islam.

Scientist: {The Nation of Islam has a few tens of thousands of members. As Cornel West once said, that is equal to the membership of a few churches in Brooklyn. With those kinds of numbers, they just can't be called popular.

SIMSHALOM: [[You are underestimating the pull of the Nation of Islam and the rise of Black RACISM and anti-Semitism! Have you forgotten the black rage of the Crown Heights riots and how a Black mayor stood by , like a nazi, and did nothing for hours as his brethern rioted against Jews???]]

Scientist: And here in New York City where I live, black politicians jump up and down all over to outdo each other in their support for Israel and Jewish causes. They can't wait to speak at pro-Israel rallies. And this is NOT because they have Jewish constituents; most of them represent all-Black districts. One example is Congressman Charlie Rangel, who has been a HUGE supporter of Israel for over 30 years. He considered it a slap in the face when three Jewish U.S. Senators (all Republicans) voted against the Martin Luther King holiday bill in the 1980s -- especially when Dr. King himself had been such a tremendous supporter of Jews and of Israel. This is also true for many Hispanic leaders; my local Jewish Community Council is honoring a local Hispanic state senator at our annual banquet this year for his support.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Maybe in your neck of the woods blacks are seen as nice, but there are plenty other parts of New York where Blacks and Hispanics are seen as having anti Semitic and hostile attitudes to Jews.]]

SIMSHALOM: ted" Christian in Spain, but after moving to England or Holland some of them claimed to be Jewish again.

Scientist: {I think this is a slander against these Sefardim and you should retract it. The history is that most of the ancestors you mention were forcibly converted in Portugal. They didn't even get the choice of martyrdom! Many got out to the Netherlands as quickly as they could, at which time they immediately resumed practicing Judaism. They were definitely Jewish.}

SIMSHALOM: [[You admit yourself that many of these people were under the influence of Christianity at one point. Are these the same people, i.e. "orthodox"Jews, that you also claimed "supported" slavery in the south? If so, how does one

Scientist: {Rabbis Raphall and Ilowy were Ashkenazic, with solid unquestionable semicha from Europe.}

SIMSHALOM: [[So maybe they knew what they were talking about then.]]


SIMSHALOM: know if their pro-slavery attitudes are derived from Christianity or from a Judaism they may have forgotten or been forced to abandon and perhaps relearnt in a faulty manner? Furthermore, the entire question of "switching back and forth" religiously is a tough one HALACHICALLY speaking as it is very questionable whether once a Jew has accepted Christianity, under whatever guise, that they can just "switch back" to being "Jewish" as if nothing happened. You need a qualified Beth Din to decide the matter. It's far more complex than saying "ok it's Monday, I guess we're Jewish now" (because Sunday they maybe went to Church), as there are questions about what degree of TESHUVAH that is required from the formerly APOSTATE Jews to accept them back into Klal Yisrael. It is a nightmare situation for the people involved and for the rabbis who have to re-welcome and certify them back into the body of Halachik Judaism and the Jewish people. It is probably more difficult than a case of regular conversion whereby a gentile abandons teir native Christianity and accepts the "Yoke of Heaven" completely.

Scientist: {I am aware of this in part because I know rabbis who serve on such beitdins. But by 1654, the date of the arrival of the first Jews in New Amsterdam, there was no question as to the Jewishness of the settlers.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Who were the qualified halachik authorities who could validate this?]]

SIMSHALOM: othing> is "definite" once people practice Christianity for a number ofyears.> Apologize to who? The dead sefardim of the south?]]

Scientist: {The Jews who laid the groundwork for Judiasm to thrive in the United States. Look, Shearith Israel dates to 1654. It has always been Orthodox. It is today. I've found no Ashkenazic synagogue in existence today in the United States that is older than 1852. It would have been quite possible for the United States to have banned non-Christians -- several colonies did. But the participation by these early Sefardim in Newport, New York, Philadelphia, Charleston, and Savannah in the civic life of the new land made it possible for the new nation to realize that a non-Christian could be a good citizen. As a result more Jews live in the United States today than have lived in one country at any point in history.}

SIMSHALOM: Even today, a Sefardi Jew will not keep Shabbat yet call himself "Orthodox",

Scientist: {I have seen this among Ashkenazim as well; I have a conceptual difficulty with the whole idea of "non observant Orthodox" -- but it seems to be accepted in much of the Jewish world. My difficulty may have
something to do with my Protestant upbringing.}

SIMSHALOM: [[What "Protestant" upbringing???

Scientist: {I grew up Protestant Christian.}

SIMSHALOM: [[My parents were both Jewish holocaust survivors. Not a pampered upbringing.]]

SIMSHALOM: do you still practice it now???]]

Scientist: {Of course not! I renounced all former religions when I became Jewish.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Mazel Tov]]

SIMSHALOM: system for any education was not organized and the public schools themselves had not become widespread yet. It was more of a

Scientist: {Public schools were widespread in New England during colonial times; I can name schools that date from 1640 or before. But Jews weren't around back then.}

SIMSHALOM: [[What you may label "public schools" in early New England were poorly run church parochial schools, many mostly one room operations. Horace Mann, d.

Scientist: {Things were actually better in colonial times than in Horace Mann's time. The Puritans were VERY serious about education. But when New England separated Church and State between 1807 and 1833 (Rhode Island was the exception; they had never had an official church) the lack of church leadership meant a rapid drop in quality.}

SIMSHALOM: 1859 fought for a better system of public schooling but only as the masses of immigrants started arriving in their tens of millions in the late 1800s did states get really serious. So for the most part education during civil war times was scatter-shot and probably most people were functionally illiterate if not completely so.]]

Scientist: {Things were far worse in the south; Virginia didn't get a statewide public school system until after Reconstruction.}

SIMSHALOM: from about 1870 to 1930 about six million Jew came to North America, and then there

Scientist: {*A Historical Atlas of the Jewish People*, Eli Barnavi, editor, gives a number of 2,090,000 for total Jewish immigration from Eastern Europe> to North America from 1881 to 1914, plus another 465,000 between 1915 and 1931.}

SIMSHALOM: [[It's acknowledged by Jewish organizations that at the outbreak of World War Two in 1939 there were probably over SIX million Jews in North America (including Canada). That was just an ESTIMATE. So either the population more than doubled by 1939 or there were a lot more Jews hidden in the "woodwork".

Scientist: {Doubling in 35 years requires a 2% annual growth rate. Not unreasonable. And remember there were already over 200,000 Jews here as of 1880.}

SIMSHALOM:Remember, the historical tendency of the Jews in America is to relatively QUICKLY assimilate, secularize, become baptized into Christian Churches through social pressure or through marriage to Christians, and

Scientist: {Not true. Intermarriage was rare and conversion almost unheard of in the U.S. a hundred years ago.}

SIMSHALOM: [[The Reform Jews were already being Baptized and marrying Chrsitain before they even got to the USA. The over-all HISTORIC trend has been one of assimliaation and apostasy, except for the crowd that came after the
Holocaust.]]

SIMSHALOM: between four to eight million Jews in America DEPENDING ON YOUR CRITERIA.]]


SIMSHALOM: [[BIRDS??? really now , that is an amazing theory? Now how in heavens name did TWO TON monsters become canaries and hummingbirds?]]

Scientist: {HaShem. He created the evolutionary process.

SIMSHALOM: [[Hashem has better things to do than validate Darwin's theories rooted in Agnosticism and Heresy.]]

Scientist: {As Niels Bohr is reported to have said to Albert Einstein, "Stop telling God what to do." ;=) }

SIMSHALOM: [[Neither of these men were people of torah and Torah Jews do NOT admire them!]]

Scientist: ould be found that were intermediate between existing animal groups, the shocking discovery of the fossil of Archaeopteryx lithographica.See>http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/diapsids/avians.html for a brief summary of the history and the evidence. This was the kind of evidence that showed the predictive power of Darwin's theories, which had been based purely on descriptive observation.}

SIMSHALOM: [[I think P.T. Barnum had it right when he declared that "There is a sucker born every minute."]]

Scientist: {Are you saying that the Archaeopteryx fossils are fradulent?}

SIMSHALOM: [[Please read some of Rabbi Avigdor Miller's Torah Books and their expose of evolutionist;s fraud as even reported in the media over the years, butconveniently overlooked.]]

SIMSHALOM: larger chunks of humanity> on average. They have a "yetzer hara" (weakness) to get into esoteric stuff when we need their energies and services for more practical uses that will help more people, I think...]]

Scientist: {Again, I think I have a better perspective here. I am sure that you (and everyone else) would have thought that bread mold was pretty useless back in the 1920s.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Mould we can see but dinosaurs we can't. Sure, everyone is entitled to their perspective, even the Creationists, right?]]

Scientist: {That one is entitled to their perspective doesn't make them right. Nor does it even mean that it should be considered. That is relativism. That is contrary to Torah.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Now are you saying that someone who believs in the literal truth of MAASEH BRESHIS (CREATION) is somehow at fault of "realtivism" because no-one can know "scientficially" what happened at Creation as no human was there to witness it and giving science a very generous "benefit of the doubt" as subscribing to "realtivity of truth"? Or are you just dismissing the whole Torah narrative of Genesis with a wave of your hand as you stick to your guns?]]

Scientist: that confirm much of his writing -- in particular the accession of Darius is on the famous Behustan rock. BTW I strongly recommend Herodotus. It is fabulously well written. And his story of Croesus, King of Lydia, should be taught in every school. It could easily have been a Rabbinic midrash -- the goyim sometimes stumbled onto Torah principles! Herodotus shows how small and apparently insignificant we were back then; we are not mentioned by name but just as a group of Syrians who observed circumcision.}

SIMSHALOM: [[Look, your average Torah scholar is not told by his Rabbis to study the sources you mention. In fact they probably would ban such a student from their Yeshiva, or tell him to burn his books. So I think it's best not to

SIMSHALOM: {We teach stuff like this here...(a Jewish college) It makes us better Jews when we understand the world around us. And it has a far longer mesorah than the more modern trend to shut out everything the non-Jewish. See Rabbi Saadia Gaon or Rambam or Rabbi Ibn Ezra or Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch or Rabbi Dr. Joseph Soloveitchik, who were all very fluent in the wisdom of the gentiles.

SIMSHALOM: [[(A liberal Jewish college) is the "LEFT WING" of Judaism and you cannot bring "proofs" from it.]]

Scientist:member that the last time we burned books, it was the works of the Rambam. And we were repaid by having our Talmud burnt -- who other than HaShem knows the magnitude of what was lost; maybe entire tractates of Talmud, entire halachic works by the Tosafists....}

SIMSHALOM: [[You are getting carried away. It is a mitzva to burn books by APKORSIM (Heretics) and about APIKURSUS (Heresy)just as it is a mitzva to BURN CHAMETZ before Pesach. A "religious college" has created its own religion.]]

SIMSHALOM: mix the ancient half-mythological histories of the dead civilizations with their dubious self-serving histories of their ruling classes, most of whom

Scientist: {Herodotus work is not mythological but based on solid research, in particular extensive travel. And he pulls no punches. This is not the chonicle of a ruling monarch.}

SIMSHALOM: either hated or persecuted Jews, with Torah learning wherein we have the TANACH, TALMUD, and a voluminous and rich LIVING TORAH LEGACY and great REBBEIM and TALMIDEI CHACHAMIM that we can learn from and enjoy in the here and now.]]

Scientist: {We clearly have a hashgafic disagreement here. I belive, as do my teachers, that learning history and science and philosophy and literature makes us better Jews. This is true for practical reasons (you wouldn't ever go to a physician who learned his medical knowledge from the Talmud), for reasons of survival (most of us need to make a living, and the greatest of our sages such as Rambam opposed studying Torah without a non-Torah source of income), and for philosophical reasons (appreciating the non-Jewish contributions to the world makes us appreciate Torah even more!). }

SIMSHALOM: [[Yea, it's a HASHKAFA ("outlook") difference allright.....By the way, were you part of the delegation that welcomed the Roman Catholic Bishops to the "liberal Jewish college" recently?]]

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- posted by Izak @ 12:02 AM