Karaites: Debating their status as "Jews"
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From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jew
Anan ben David and Karaites as Jews

SIMSHALOM says: Who are today's "true" Karaites?

Simshalom says: Recently, user User:Yoshiah_ap has been adding material about the Karaites as Jews. Each time I insert material describing the non-Jewish practices of Karaite groups, they are marginalized. IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: 1) If you're going to post a message, don't cross-post. I don't like to have to post my replies to multiple places. 2) Give an example of one. 3) Shall I start posting about Non-Jewish practices that the Talmudic Rabbis incorporated? 4) Should I start blabbing about the lies that you have made against Karaites, such as that most Jews do not regarding Karaites as Jewish, when the Israeli Cheif Rabbinate made the ruling that not only we are Jews, but that Rabbinical Jews should marry Karaites in order to assimilate them! Besides my user talk and this page, how many other pages have you posted this to?

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: I only contacted you on your user talk and here. Sorry if that has confused you, as I only wanted to get your attention.IZAK 07:08, 4 May 2004 (UTC)


Yoshiah says: That's not correct. I've also seen it on I think at least 2 other pages, including the Anan ben David. If you wanted to get my attention, you could have simply left me an email. --Yoshiah ap 01:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah:The present discussion is only taking place here. Does that mean that you feel "safer" in YOUR one-sided posted postings on this subject all over the web and Wikpedia that you seem to think you "own". This is not about your "personal" beliefs, this is about a big SCHISM in the history of the Jew that split the Jewish people. IZAK 08:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: This is VERY confusing: If you as a Karaite DO NOT ACCEPT the rabbis, so why do you cite those self-same rabbis as "proof" that you are "Jewish"??? Either you are for the (Orthodox) rabbis or against them, but you can't have it both ways: Denigrating and hating them and then foisting rabbinical "rulings and opinions" on others (from any of the other "streams" of Judaism) who may not accept that (Orthodox chief rabbinate) ruling, as NOT ALL JEWS accept the Israeli chief rabbinate of the secular state of Israel. At this point in history, most Jews neither know nor accept the Karaites as they don't even know who they are and that they even "exist". IZAK 07:05, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: As we say here in America, take a chill pill. Where are you getting this idea that I hate Rabbinic Jews? I don't hate Rabbinic Jews, my dearest sister is a "Rabbinical" Jew. Answer that question, and then I'll answer the rest of yours. --Yoshiah ap 01:39, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Again, you are "personalizing" this subject far too much. This is not about our siblings and how much we do or don't love them (which "proves" nothing in a forum of analyzing and explaining something that happened in Jewish history). Your sister may be a lovely person as you are no doubt too, but so what? Stick to the subject. The question is: Why do you praise the Israeli Orthodox rabbis when at the same time you go about besmirching all the other Orthodox rabbis throughout time who believe/d the same things that the Israeli Chief rabbis maintain? So which is it? IZAK 08:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Who is User:Yoshiah_ap representing as he needs to have a NPOV about Karaites
JUST WHO ARE THE "KARAITES" that User:Yoshiah_ap is "representing"? IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: What is an NPOV? I know that POV = Point of View. And, I am a Karaite. If you don't believe it check out my webpage.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: FYI: A "NPOV" on Wikipedia means "Neutral Point of View", thus it is exactly BECAUSE you claim to be a Karaite, that you must NOT expect that people should accept your opinions which may NOT be "neutral" from a detached objective scholarly perspective as you are very EMOTIONALLY over-invested in your subject and therefore you may not be open to other "neutral" opinions on the subject of Karaism... That you have your own private website on Karaism is TOTALLY meaningless and irrelevant, as it is not a requirement, neither a plus nor minus, in fact it means nothing on Wikipedia. IZAK 06:53, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Thanks for the definitions. Are you honestly suggesting that I am not a Karaite? If so, I'll be glad to meet you when I visit Jersualem to disproove that. Or would you like some paperwork from Karaite leaders? Carefully read this paraphrase of what you just said: it is exactly BECAUSE you claim to be a Rabbinate, that you must NOT expect that people should accept your opinions which may NOT be "neutral" from a detached objective scholarly perspective as you are very EMOTIONALLY over-invested in your subject and therefore you may not be open to other "neutral" opinions on the subject of Karaism... Also, when you have a website that promote one teaching or another, it sorta backs up your claim that you believe in such and such a thing.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Again, you are falling victim to over-personalization of the role of contributors to Wikipedia. We are all entitled to our personal beliefs in an open society. However, nowhere on Wikipedia have I said that I am a "Rabbinate", whatever that is, since that word is not in common English usage. On the other hand, it is YOU who constantly reminds us that you are a "Karaite" and that, that somehow "entitles" you or means that you "have to be accepted" by the world at large as "THE" "VOICE" of Karaites on Wikipedia and the Internet. IZAK 09:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

How many "real" Karaites are alive today: Numbers please!

Simshalom says: Another problem is that User:Yoshiah_ap is making the Karaites sound like a large group. Just how big is the Karaite movement TODAY? Five thousand? Ten thousand? Or what? IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Look before you leap. You also posted this question to my User Talk Page, which already has your answer. I have *NEVER* tried to say that we are a big group today. I said that during what is known as the Golden Age of Karaism, we comprised 40% of Jewry - that's the number given by Rabbinical Sources. And it was back in the middle ages. In the future, please do not put words in my mouth.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Yes, I did subsequently see that you claim that there are "30,000" Karaites in Israel. But what does that figure mean exactly? Practicing Karaites? "True believers"? "Religious" or "secular" ones? Would THEY all agree with being classed as "Karaites", and if not why not? IZAK 07:17, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Yes, they would all agree on being classified as Karaites. If you don't believe me, I invite you to visit the Old Karaite Synagogue in Jerusalem.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Numbers please! You have still not given any (estimated or rough) population figures for just how small the Karaites really are to today! IZAK 04:25, 6 May 2004

Wikipedia says:Anan ben David's true role: He praised Islam and Christianity

Simshalom says: Furthermore User:Yoshiah_ap says that it is incorrect to say that Anan ben David is the founder of Karaism, but when it is said that Anan ben David venerated Islam, it is a "lie" and asks for sources.

Well (and I hope that User:Yoshiah_ap will not now dash off and change the Anan ben David page) it says on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anan_ben_David

"Anan Ben David opposed this move, and along with his followers he proclaimed himself the antiexilarch. This step was construed by the Muslim authorities as rebellion against the authority of the calif, who had formally invested Josiah with the position. Such an act on the part of a dhimmi (follower of a religion tolerated by Islam) in a Muslim state was a capital offense."

"When Anan's proclamation of himself as exilarch became known, he was arrested by the authorities one Sunday in 767, and thrown into prison, to be executed on the ensuing Friday, as guilty of high treason. Luckily for Anan, he met in jail a prominent fellow-prisoner, the founder of the Muslim casuistic school of the Hanifites, al-Nu'man ibn Thabit, surnamed Abu anifah. He gave Ana Ben David advice which saved his life: He should set himself to expound all ambiguous precepts of the Torah in a fashion opposed to the traditional interpretation, and make this principle the foundation of a new religious sect. He must next get his partizans to secure the presence of the calif himself at the trial — his presence not being an unusual thing at the more important prosecutions. Anan was to declare that his religion was quite a different one from that of his brother and of the rabbinical Jews, and that his followers entirely coincided with him in matters of religious doctrine; which was an easy matter for Anan to say, because the majority of them were opposed to the rabbis."

"Ben David and his friends complied with this advice, and in the presence of the calif Almansur (754-775) Anan defended himself. Moreover, Anan won for himself the favor of the calif by his deep veneration for Muhammed as the prophet of the Arab peoples, and by the declaration that his new religion, in many ways was similar to Islam."

"Anan now devoted himself to the development of his new religion and its new code. His Sefer ha-Mitzvot ("The Book of the Precepts") was published about 770."

"Anan Ben David adopted many principles and opinions of other anti-rabbinic forms of Judaism that had previously existed. He took much from the old Sadducees and Essenes, whose remnants still survived, and whose writings—or at least writings ascribed to them—were still in circulation. Thus, for example, these older sects prohibited the burning of any lights and the leaving of one's dwelling on the Sabbath; they also enjoined the actual observation of the new moon for the appointment of festivals, and the holding of the Pentecost festival always on a Sunday."

"From the Isawites and the Yudganites immediately preceding this epoch, he borrowed the recognition and justification of Jesus as the prophet for the followers of Christianity, and of Muhammed for those of Islam; in this way ingratiating himself with professors of those creeds." IZAK 21:04, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Rebuttal concerning Anan ben David
1) Anybody can make a wikipedia page. Citing a wikipedia page does not proove anything. I am asking for an actual historical source. I have the four oldest accounts of Anan ben David. 3 of those are Rabbinical, and one of those is from Ya'acov Al-Kirkisani, a famous Karaite Sage.

2) Veneration of Christianity and Islam is nowhere to be found in the four oldest accounts of Anan ben David. Considering the oldest of those four accounts was written over 800 years after the death of Anan, serious questions about the accuracy of it's account and that of later sources must be answered.

Here is what a 12th century Rabbinic account says:

"He (Anan) said, "The religion of my brother employs a calender based upon caculation of the time of the new moon and intercalation of leap years by cycles, whereas mind depends upon actual observation of the new moon and intercalation regulated by the ripening of new grain." Since the king's religion likewise employed the latter method, Anan thus gained his favor and good will."

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: The (Talmudic) rabbis were always careful with their words. They were careful not to "incriminate" themselves in the Middle Ages at a time when Islam and Chritianity were the most powerful doctrines of the times. The words you have given here YOURSELF, prove that the rabbis viewed Anan's arguments as CONNECTING with the Islamic king, as you quote: "Since the king's religion likewise employed the latter method, Anan thus gained his favor and good will." Anyone familiar with the SUBTLE writing style of the ancient rabbis will immediately recognize the fact that the message here is that "Anan and the Islamic king connected", in contradistinction to the fact that "the rabbis and Anan did NOT connect", which is NO praise in the context of the constant, fierce, unyielding condemnation of Karaism, or Ananism, by the rabbis.IZAK 07:48, 4 May 2004 (UTC) throughout history.

Yoshiah says: Sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. The text says that the Caliph favored Anan because he adhered to the biblical practice of basing his calender on the sightings of the New Moons, like his religion did. At best, it is a far stretch to say that the account says he recognized Anan as a prophet. At worst, your claim is an aarogant propaganda intented to spread lies about a person.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Since you yourself maintain that Anan ben David was an "Ananite" and "NOT" a Karaite at all and was denounced by the Karaite leader (Kirkistani I think you mentioned): So why do you get so worked up when Anan is characterized as a devious religious opportunist perhaps like the "reverend" Jim Jones or David Koresh, cult leaders concerned more about their own egos than about the welfare and life of their followers? IZAK 10:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: I've already answered that question. If you claim that he founded Karaism, claims about what he did or did not do will automatically be linked with Karaism.

Simshalom says:Yoshiah: I fail to see your logic. You say that you "defend" Anan ben David so that things that are said about him will NOT get associated with Karaism. This is a VERY peculiar "argument" don't you think? By the same token then, should Jews "defend" the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" because most anti-Semites associate the "Protocols" with "Jews"? You therefore must agree that it makes no sense logically to "defend" Anan in order to "fend off" attacks on Karaism that may or may not result from it. Logic and fairness would dictate that you reject him because he does "not" speak for Karaism, or he is an embarrassment to Karaism. Which is it? IZAK 04:55, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: It would seem according to rational logic, that if Anan cared for the Jews, he would NOT have led a "reverse Exodus" taking followers away from the religion of his ancestors, don't you think? IZAK 10:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Arguing this would be arguing theology, and that's not what Wikipedia was here for.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: NO! We are talking about POST-theological consequences, about how this effected the Jews as an ethnicity. What Anan ben David did (with whatever "theological rationales") RESULTED in a definite SPLIT and SCHISM in the Jewish people in effect creating a DIFFERENT GROUP of people, many of whom subsequently lost contact with the main body of the Jewish people and who even opted NOT to be called Jews at all, such as the Turkic Karaites for example. So what started as a "religious" issue ended up as an ethnic "reality". IZAK 04:55, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Why was Anan ben David deemed unfit for leadership by his own rabbinic contemporaries in the first place? IZAK 10:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC) Again remember that these are ACADEMIC hypothetical discussions. IZAK 10:13, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: This is another topic that would get into a theological argument. Simply, he disagreed with Rabbinic teachings.

simshalom says: Yoshiah: Again, NO! This cannot be waived off as a "theological argument" because it was NOT simply about religion. It was ALSO about Anan ben David's rage and fury at being rejected for the Exilarch lay leadership position by the rabbinical heads who chose his younger brother instead. It seems the rabbis were already aware of his negative attitudes BEFORE he "decided" to create his own "new" fateful "religion" resulting in the eventual schism between those who became his disciples and those who remained loyal to the rabbis.IZAK 04:55, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: This is NOT a "CHAT ROOM" getting flooded with emotions, rather we are attempting to arrive at an understanding of someone who founded Karaism according to most scholars, or a cult called "Ananism" by the Karites themselves. So which is it? IZAK 09:30, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Then as I said, take a chill pill. You've tried to claim that I hate Rabbis and Rabbinic Judaism, a claim that is absolutely false.--Yoshiah ap 19:46, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: This is not about "me" or "you". This is about the schism in the Jewish people that resulted after Karaism was founded, THEY are the ones who definitely have negative attitudes to the rabbis. I know nothing about your personal attitudes beyond what you claim for yourself. IZAK 04:55, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: 3) No one questions that Anan used other sources for his religion. He used Rabbinical Interperetation methods and his beliefs were almost the same of Rabbinic Judaism. In fact, Ya'acov Al-Kirkisani wrote: "Hay, the president of the Rabbinate Academny, together with his father, tranlsated the book of Anan from the Aramaic into Hebrew with his father and encountered nothing in it of which they could not discover the source in Rabbinate Lore."
Now, do you have any sources for your claims, or not?

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: What do you mean by "No one questions that Anan used other sources for his religion"? QUESTION/S: What are these "other sources"? If it was Islam or Christianity, why don't you say so openly? Are you "justifying" the fact that Anan adopted Islamic and Christian doctrines with the claim that he also (equally?) used "Rabbinical (Judaism) Interperetation methods"? Did Anan have a (religious) moral conscience or was he an "equal opportunity" twister of all religions to suit his won personal needs and ends out of hate and spite for the rabbis? And finally, if you claim to be a "Karaite" and not an "Ananite" so then why are you so emotionally invested in "protecting" Anan yourself as it makes no sense to present favorable arguments on behalf of someone you claim to reject, unless there is something that you are hiding for whatever reason? IZAK 07:48, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: IZAK : 1) I mean just that. Everyone knows he used the writings of other Jewish sects in basing his beliefs. Almost all of it could be traced to Rabbinate beliefs. 2) About Anan - we know very little about him. The older the source about him, the more fanciful it gets (from all perspectives) 3)Because many Rabbinates like yourself say that Anan ben David is the founder of Karaism, and thus will use him to level attacks against us. Some Rabbinates even make the claims that we worship Mohammed - and these sort of lies disgust me. Is there something you are hiding, IZAK?

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Please use correct current understandable English words. There is no such word in use as a "Rabbinate/s" when talking about a private person (like me or you). The word "Rabbinate" with an "upper-case" (capital) "R" usually refers to the name of an "institution" such as the the "Chief Rabbinate of Israel", sometimes shortened to the "Rabbinate". The word "rabbinate", with a "lower-case" ("small") "r" means the "professional field" that rabbis work in which is called the "rabbinate". To call another person a "Rabbinate" or even a "rabbinate" without even knowing who they are (I may not even be a real person :-) is both inaccurate and a sign of desperation. In SCHOLARLY circles there is reference to "rabbinical" Jews, the ones who have had their "religious status" derived from having been the followers of the rabbis (and not of the "rabbinate"). The known and commonly used names and categories are Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, religious, secular, Israeli... IZAK 09:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Actually, the term "Rabbinate" has also been used to describe an adherant of Rabbinic Judaism, just as "Karaite" is used to describe an adherant of Karaite Judaism.--Yoshiah ap 19:46, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Never heard this before. Where is this done today? IZAK 04:55, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

SEE: Rabbinical opposition to Anan, the Karaites, and Karaism The Karaites: Challengers of Rabbinic Authority:
http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=91

"...The major rabbinic opponent of the Karaites was Saadia Gaon. He issued articles, letters, and responsa attacking the doctrine of the Karaites, and even declared that they were not Jews...Saadia successfully defended rabbinic authority against the Karaite philosophical invasion...According to Rabbinic law, Karaites are considered heretical Jews; they were treated as Jews in every country they lived in until the eighteenth century, when Russia annexed Poland. Catherine the Great then declared that Karaites were exempt from the double tax for Jews. From that time to the present, European countries, including Nazi Germany, distinguished the Karaites as non-Jews..." IZAK 08:44, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Actually, if it weren't for Saadia, we might have died out. His attacks on us brought us more converts from Rabbinism than we had ever seen before. So much for a successfull defense --Yoshiah ap 02:07, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Uniting yourself with the Karaites in a personal fashion and talking about yourself as "us" meaning the Karaites (vs. the "Rabbinate" meaning "them") is very revealing, unfortunate and clear proof that when it comes to this subject, you have NOT mastered the Wikipedia art and practice of NPOV. IZAK 10:04, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: IZAK : This is no different than speaking about yourself as an Orthodox Jew.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Nowhere do I talk of "Us" vs. "them", whereas you do it constantly. Again: PLEASE refrain from personalizing discusions, writings, and editing on Wikipedia, as it is most unbecoming of mature dispassionate critical scholarship. IZAK 05:25, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Islamic Culture 750-1095: Abbasid Caliphate 750-945:
http://www.san.beck.org/AB14-IslamCulture750-1095.html#1

"...When the Jewish Exilarch Solomon died in 761, the Geonim leaders, Judah the Blind at Sora and Dudai at Pumbeditha, prevented Anan ben David from succeeding by choosing his younger brother Chananya. Anan rejected the Judaism of the Talmud and wanted to return to a strict adherence to the Bible, which had recently been made more available to non-scholars by adding a system of vowel points. The followers of Anan called themselves Karaites and their adversaries Rabbanites, meaning "partisans of authority." Anan was put in prison, but he was released by the Caliph when he claimed that he was not a rebel against Judaism but the founder of a new religion. After the time of Anan the Exilarchate was no longer hereditary; but the presidents of the academies directed the election of the Exilarch..." IZAK 08:44, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

PDF document http://www.bfbs.org.uk/documents/Masoretes.pdf
"The Masoretes and the Punctuation of Biblical Hebrew":
"...(Page 6):...In the second half of the eighth century the ruling Caliph refused to confirm the succession Anan ben David, choosing instead his younger brother. Anan's reaction was to set up a "new religion" which, he claimed, was a compromise between Judaism and Islam...his followers, at first called Ananites adopted the name Karaites (properly Quaraites, from the Hebrew verb to read) These 'Bible readers' coined the term Rabbinites for those who followed the authority of the Talmud..." IZAK 08:44, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Sources please. Cite a single writing of Anan that uses the term Karaite. That fact is, you won't find one. Also, are you aware that the Masoretic Text was written by Karaites? (The Karaite Ben Asher Family, to be exact)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: There has ALWAYS been more than "one" form of Karaism: SEE:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht110.htm

"After Anan's death Saul, his son, succeeded him as exilarch of the Karaites, but Anan's disciples separated from him, as they did not agree with him about some ceremonies, according to Saul's interpretation of biblical passages. They became a distinct sect calling themselves Ananites; so it also happened after the death of Saul, who was succeeded by Josiah, his son. And so almost every age sprang a new Karaite sect with a name of its own, each interpreting Scripture in its own way. Some of them will be mentioned presently, It is self-evident that an attempt to get at the profound meaning of the Scriptures was the business of every such sect; through their activity the knowledge of Hebrew grammar, of Massorah, the vowel-points and punctuation marks, was diffused; theological philosophizing was also not strange to some Karaites, as they had to explain such words as God's "hand," "eye," "finger," which they were unwilling to take literally and materialize God, just as the other Jews. Thus gradually a large literature sprang among the Karaites, not inferior, taken as a whole, to the Talmud itself in bulk." IZAK 06:49, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: IZAK, make up your mind. Are you here to speak truthfully about Karaism, or simply to spread false propaganda about Karaism?--Yoshiah ap 02:07, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: Take a close look and you will see that I am NOT citing my "own" opinions. This is not about "you" and "me". I am quoting reliable open sources researched on the Internet with the links provided. The past cannot be "undone" by emotional shrieks that the Karaites are "getting a bad rap". The fact remains that they split off from the body of the Jews and chose to create a break-away religion. They have only themselves to blame for the fact that they dwindled over time and have become just a side-note to present day Judaism of any stream. Religious schisms are complex affairs and those who cause them must carry the responsibity. Our job is to look critically at what happened and not to get emotionally involved defending Anan ben David and his doomed religious movement. That's the difference beween dispassionate, yet critical, scholarship and propaganda,(you seem to take any critique as propaganda, why?) IZAK 09:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: IZAK: You have not provided a real source for any claim you have made. I have the manuscripts that were recorded about Anan ben David. My only request has been that you cite a source manuscript for you claims. Stop making this more than this is, and simply provide a source. I have all the sources up to 800 years after the death of Anan, and they mention nothing that you claim.

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: I cannot fathom your logic again. You claim that since in his own lifetime Anan ben David did "not" use the term "Karaite",(because as you claim, no "manuscripts" of his time show that Anan or others used that term about him) therefore "he" is "not" a "Karaite" because neither he nor people who knew him called him a "Karaite", and so therefor what he said, did, and taught in promoting Biblical "literalism" and ferociously rejecting and denigrating "Rabbinism" should be categorized as "Ananism" and not "Karaism" (even though the net HISTORICAL result of his activities seem no different to what is known as Karaism to most scholars). Allow me to say that this would be like saying that since Karl Marx (whose parents were Jews who had become Christians) "wrote" about communism but in his lifetime was NOT known as a "communist" and the communist movement had not taken hold yet in his lifetime, but he was better known as a radical political journalist and writer in his own lifetime, should therefore be known "ONLY" as a "Journalistic Marxist" and "not" as a "communist" even though he popularized the IDEAs and NOTIONS that EQUAL "Communism" in historical development, in his writings. The point is undeniable, that just as Marx's writings and teachings about Communism contributed to its rise and popularity, similarly, Anan ben David's KNOWN teachings and writings (whatever he or others called them in his days) contributed to the rise of Karaism. Do you follow? IZAK 05:25, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Summarizing the "dispute" over Karaism
This dispute centers over a few questions:

What, exactly, did Anan do?

Yoshiah says: He petitioned the Muslim authorities so that Non-Rabbinic Jews would not have to be accountable to the Rabbinic Laws. Where he lived, they could be prosecuted for not following Rabbinic Halakha.--Yoshiah ap 20:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom sdays: Yoshiah: Is that "all" that Anan ben David did? He just "petitioned" the Muslims? Makes it sound like a modern-day tame voter-registration drive. Anan ben David launched ALL OUT WAR against his fellow Jews: See the original Wikipedia article for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anan_ben_David
See also as an example of the scope of Anan's doings: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht110.htm
THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD: CHAPTER VII: THE EIGHTH CENTURY. THE DOMINION OF THE GAONIM. THE OPPOSITION OF THE KARAITES. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A SECT OF THAT NAME:

"...This man was Anan ben David, nephew of the exilarch Solomon, in Bagdad, who had died childless. Anan expected to be elected as his successor, but his younger brother was chosen instead, and he was rejected because of his liberal ideas and want of sympathy with the Talmud. Then he publicly began to make war on the Talmud and Talmudists, and became the head of all its opponents and ill-wishers. He made his headquarters at Jerusalem, after having been, it seems, obliged to leave Babylonia. There he assumed the title of exilarch, and around him were assembled a great multitude who made, war on the Oral Law, its scholars, and in particular on the two colleges of Sura and Pumbeditha."IZAK 06:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"By his general precept, "Search well in the Scriptures," he declared as naught the whole Oral Law. And wishing to find favor in the eyes of the Caliphs, who fixed the dates of their festivals by observation of the new moon, he also renewed this custom, once in force among the Jews while the Temple had existed, repealing thus the calculation of R. Adda received among all Talmudists. He openly said to the Caliph Almanzur that the Jews had been guilty of persecuting Jesus and opposing Mahomet, though (said he) both these men did much to drive idolatry out of existence, and cannot be attacked without guilt. Of the first he said that he had been a holy man who did not want to appear as a prophet, or a god, but only desired to reform the faith which the Pharisees had perverted. Of the second he said that be really was a prophet for the Arabs, only he does not believe that the Law (of Moses) is repealed by Mahommedanism.IZAK 06:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"His first work was to separate himself from the Jews by fixing the date of Pentecost to be fifty days after the first Sabbath after Passover, as the Sadducees fixed it formerly. The dates of New Year and the Day of Atonement, Passover and the Feast of Booths were determined by watching for the new moon, which did not agree with the Jewish dates. As in the leap year one month is added to the year, he allowed, in case of need, to begin Passover when barley is ripe in the fields. The Phylacteries (not a grave ceremony among the Jews, at any rate), the four species of the Lulab and the semi-holiday Hanuka (Dedication), he abolished. On the other hand he made the observation of Sabbath more burdensome, so that the lighting of candles was prohibited on the eve of Sabbath, even by a non-Jew, also the leaving of one's house during Sabbath when most neighbors are not Jews, i.e. Karaites; the dietary laws he also made stricter, so as to prohibit his adherents eating in company with Jews for the latter are not careful enough and oftentimes eat with Gentiles."IZAK 06:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"Soon Anan saw that if every one were left to interpret the Biblical text according to his own mind, etc., his sect would be split, and not endure (as actually was the case in the course of time, as will be explained further on), and that a fixed commentary is needed at least for those passages which can by no means be interpreted literally. Therefore he claimed many great authorities, long deceased, as Karaites, and declared that R. Jehuda b. Tabai, the colleague of Simeon b. Shetah, etc. Shamai the elder, the colleague of Hillel the Elder, and other such, were some of the founders of their sect, and he ascribed to them some interpretations of passages which he claimed to have received by tradition from them. "Abandon the Talmud and Mishna," he said to his followers, "and I will make you a Talmud of my own, according to the traditions I have." Though in reality he took the rules of the Mishna as basis, yet he said that as far as details are concerned he is as wise as the sages of the Mishna, or more so, and can construe the Biblical texts by his own intellect."IZAK 06:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"His hatred of the Talmud became so great that he said that if he could have swallowed the Talmud, he would cast himself into a lime-kiln, that it might be burned with him and leave no vestige of its existence. Thus the people of Israel separated itself then into two hostile hosts. The Talmudists declared the Karaites not to be Jews, and forbade to give them any holy ceremony to perform, while the Karaites said of the followers of the rabbis that they are Jewish sinners, and it is sinful to intermarry with them. The city of Jerusalem witnessed for the third time a splitting of Israel into parties." IZAK 06:32, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickrab says: Is there any possible way to find out what Anan did, exactly?

Yoshiah says: I can provide the four oldest accounts of Anan ben David in English if it'd help. 3 are of Rabbinic origin, one of Karaite origin. Considering that the oldest of these was written 800 years after the death of Anan, I would question the reliability of any older accounts.--Yoshiah ap 20:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: See above, from:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht110.htm
THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD: CHAPTER VII: THE EIGHTH CENTURY. THE DOMINION OF THE GAONIM. THE OPPOSITION OF THE KARAITES. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A SECT OF THAT NAME IZAK 07:16, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: What is a Karaite? Is Karaism a religion distinct from Judaism?

Simshalom says: Hi Rickyrab (Rickyrab): I have already cited some sources from a web-search above, anyone can read more if they have the time: The issue of "Karaism" vis-a-vis Judaism, and the historicity of Anan ben David in fomenting the "Karaite" movement is not "my" "personal" hobby-horse at all as it is a well-worn path.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Of Judaism's approximate 14,000,000 million "adherents" today (by "birth" or by "belief") it would be fair to say that there may be a literal "few thousand" who openly acknowledge being Karaites or adherents of Karaism. It may be a case of "much ado about nothing" as history has already given its verdict: Karaism may have had it's day/s in the sun, but by now it is a mere foot-note in the annals of modern Jewish history.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
The question is NOT what "IZAK" or "Yoshiah" "believe" or "feel" about the subject of Karaism as it is FAR TOO BIG A SUBJECT that has been around for a long time and is very clear and well known.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
One does not have to cite esoteric "ancient texts", you can research the subject on the Internet to learn that all branches of Judaism always rejected Karaism as a "belief system" while at the same time individual "Karaites" may have been accepted back into the Jewish community if they renounced the Karaite doctrines which is what the purpose of the present Chief Rabbinate may or may not be.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
The Chief Rabbinate of Israel NEVER SAID that KARAISM IS "kosher", on the contrary, Karaism remains a paradoxical and confused religious movement DISTINCT from "normative" Judaism because (just a few obvious contradictions that come up):IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: A Karaite is a "sola scripturala" (sp?) Jew. In other words, a Karaite Jew accepts the entire Hebrew bible as being authorative in his life, but does not accept the Talmud as being binding.--Yoshiah ap 20:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah: You are evading a more serious presentation. Question: What if a Karaite says that he is NOT a Jew but just a "Karaite", unlike your definition that starts off with the incorrect assumption that all Karaites are "Karaite Jews" which is just not true, as many Karaites have claimed openly over the course of history that they are not "Jews" even though they may observe parts of the Torah and keep some of the Jewish festivals in some fashion. IZAK 07:56, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Is Izak "emotionally invested" in Anan, and is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Yoshiah says: I think he is because he has resorted to claiming that I hate Rabbis and Rabbinic Judaism, and he has not provided a source for his claims. --Yoshiah ap 20:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Yoshiah:No "personal" statements have been said against you or anyone else. We are having an open-minded intellectual serious DEBATE about Karaism. There seems to be a misunderstanding about what is happening due to the constant personal references you make to yourself and about how you IMAGINE others may "feel" about you, which is maybe just a smokescreen for dealing with the subject in a forthright manner as befits Wikipedia.IZAK 06:45, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"65.122.112.41" says: Hi everyone. Wouldn't it be safe to say that if this this person is a Karaite, that he would know if a certain person founded a his religion or not? Given that he/she is a Karite, and that he/she can refer to actual manuscripts to back up his/her position, I'd be slightly more inclined to believe him/her about what Karaites believe. It's obvious to me that they're both a bit emotionally involved, but it seems to me that an Orthodox Jew telling a person what a Karaite Jew believes would be like a Southern Baptist Minister telling a person what a Mormon Missionary believes. There is bound to be some errors because of the absolute opposition between the two. --65.122.112.41 23:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickrab says: Now, I don't know what Anan did, but he did it a long time ago, so... it's hard to come to a conclusion without accounting for confusion and the passage of time. As for your controversies over the issues, perhaps we ought to come to a compromise, in which Izak can state his views and reasons for such views, and Yoshia can state his views and reasons, and the final article can take the most likely items to be the truth - or items that both sides agree on more than other items - and that could approximate a NPOV. Building a true NPOV will take plenty of work on the Karaism issue, though. Rickyrab 05:46, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: My only request is that IZAK provide a source for his claims. They are not to be found in any accounts of Anan within 800 years of his death. --Yoshiah ap 20:12, 5 May 2004 (UTC) --Yoshiah ap 02:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Is Karaism Judaism and does it belong with the article on Jew?

Simshalom says: Hi Rickyrab (Rickyrab): I have already cited some sources from a web-search above, anyone can read more if they have the time:
The issue of "Karaism" vis-a-vis Judaism, and the historicity of Anan ben David in fomenting the "Karaite" movement is not "my" "personal" hobby-horse at all as it is a well-worn path.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Of Judaism's approximate 14,000,000 million "adherents" today (by "birth" or by "belief") it would be fair to say that there may be a literal "few thousand" who openly acknowledge being Karaites or adherents of Karaism. It may be a case of "much ado about nothing" as history has already given its verdict: Karaism may have had it's day/s in the sun, but by now it is a mere foot-note in the annals of modern Jewish history.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: To say that there only a few thousand Karaites in existence is at best a lie. --Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Fact: Karaites exist. Fact: They practice something called "Karaism", and apparently they are perpetuating Karaism. Who cares how many there are, so long as Karaism goes on? Rickyrab 21:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

simshalom says: The question is NOT what "IZAK" or "Yoshiah" "believe" or "feel" about the subject of Karaism as it is FAR TOO BIG A SUBJECT that has been around for a long time and is very clear and well known.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Then why do you insinuate that I hate the Rabbis and Rabbinic Judaism? --Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Probably because Izak might have only been thinking (at the time he stated his view of the question) about how Yoshiah feels about Karaism, while at the time he made his insinuation, he was thinking about how Yoshiah feels about Rabbinic Judaism. Rickyrab 21:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: One does not have to cite esoteric "ancient texts", you can research the subject on the Internet to learn that all branches of Judaism always rejected Karaism as a "belief system" while at the same time individual "Karaites" may have been accepted back into the Jewish community if they renounced the Karaite doctrines which is what the purpose of the present Chief Rabbinate may or may not be.IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I can safely say one thing: Reform Judaism wouldn't reject Karaism as a "belief system". I'm pretty sure Karaitic practice would be acceptable within the bounds of Reform Judaism! Rickyrab 21:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: I've only asked you to cite a source. Even a Rabbinic Source. Rabbinic claims about Karaism on the web have many errors, and confuse us with other middle age sects of Judaism. It is such a problem that Congregation Orah Saddiqim has four pages dedicated to correcting these. For example, one says that we have attacked the Masoretic Text, when the Karaite Ben Asher family were the ones who produced it, another claims how it is forbidden to don tefillin in a certain way - that is even more bogus because we do not don Teffillin. If Izak wants to include fanciful accounts written over a millenia after the death of Anan ben David, then I will also include the fanciful accounts of a Rabbinic Assasination attempt on him. But I'd rather keep to reliable, accurate accounts.

Simshalom says: The Chief Rabbinate of Israel NEVER SAID that KARAISM IS "kosher", on the contrary, Karaism remains a paradoxical and confused religious movement DISTINCT from "normative" Judaism because (just a few obvious contradictions that come up):IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: I never claimed that he said Karaism was "kosher". I have said that he said that Karaites were Jewish, and that Observant Orthodox Jews should marry Karaites in an attempt to assimilate Karaites into Rabbinic Judaism. I can provide the source if you'd like, in both Hebrew and English. --Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Y'know what some Jews say about Jews: "with three Jews, you get four opinions". An Orthodox rabbi noting that there are Jews who don't practice "Judaism" is nothing new. Rickyrab 21:34, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: The reason I made mention of it is because Izak attempted to make it look like Karaites are not Jews. Instead of trying to argue it, I simply reffered to one of his authorities. --Yoshiah ap 02:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: It seeks to renounce Orthodox rabbis at the same time that it wants their legitimization of itself. If they reject the rabbis so why now do they accept them? So which is it?

Yoshiah says: As you had implied that Karaites are not Jews, I simply reffered to one of your Authorities as anything else would not be considered valid by yourself.--Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says:They want to make peace with the Orthodoxim, but as a separate entity with their own rules. They want to cut down on the backbiting. Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Karaism rejects Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism by claiming to be "closer" to Orthodox Judaism at the same time that it rejects the views of Orthodox Judaism. So which is it?

Yoshiah says: We are closer to Orthodox Judaism in the fact that we accept all the Mitzvot as binding.--Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Neither. Karaism is its own movement, with its own ideas on how to be properly religious. Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Some modern adherents declare that Karaism "rejects" the status of the Talmud (as held by the Orthodox) and therefore makes it sound that it is similar in some ways to Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism who also view the Talmud differently to the Orthodox, yet at the same time claiming that Karaism accepts the written Torah which the Reform and Conservative DO NOT view as God-given. So which is it?

Yoshiah says: We have always rejected the Talmud as binding. Reform Judaism rejects the existence of God entirely --Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Reform Judaism holds that the Torah was written by folks, but inspired by God. It does NOT reject the existence of God!!! If you want proof of this, go look into our prayerbook, Gates of Prayer. I am not sure if the Conservatives hold this view, or the Reconstructionists, for that matter.Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: My apologies - I really worded that wrong. Most of the Reform Jews I've known didn't believe in God, and I was mixing the two. Sorry 'bout that.--Yoshiah ap 02:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Karaism has a record of claiming to be similar to an Islam (which is based on the Koran) yet claims that it also is "ONLY" based on the "LITERAL" Jewish Bible which forbids association with other religions (as stated in the Ten Commandments: "I am the Lord your God...you shall not have any other Gods before me..."). So which is it?

Yoshiah says: Considering that when the Temple was standing the Pharisees and every other sect of Judaism also went by the observation of the New Moon, as is called for in the Torah, your attack is baseless. The difference in the Hillel II calender is that it is based on predictions of when the New Moon will be, rather than the actual observation.--Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: Not all Bible-adhering monotheists consider the Muslims' God to be different from the God of the Jews. Some would say upfront that Allah is the same divinity as HaShem, or God. From that point of view, similarity to Islam need not be written off as "associations with other religions". Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Some Karaites renounce Anan ben David as being "not a true Karaite" yet he is still praised for his wisdom, "shrewdness", and contributions. So which is it?

Simshalom says: In retrospect, some Karaites show deep respect and admire the achievements of Anan ben David yet at other times they paint Anan ben David's followers as "Ananites" as if they are "ashamed" of things he did, because if they were proud of him they would not feel the need to label his followers "Ananites" and not "Karaites". So which is it?

Yoshiah says: He wasn't a Karaite at all. We respect him only in the same manner you might respect Martin Luther King Jr. --Yoshiah ap 20:35, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says: One can be a good guy without being a member of your group. Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps they have their own ideas of what groups should be named. What can I say? Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: RABBI Saadia Gaon can objectively be considered to be greater than the secularly-appointed Orthodox "Chief Rabbis" of modern secularly-run Israel. He was the rabban shel kol b'nei hagolah (Rabbi of all the members of the diasporah) a rabbinic and Talmudic leader and scholar par excellence, his writings are still studied, applied and known to this day. He lived during the age of Anan and the initial confrontations between the Karaites and the remaining Jews, and in his writings he states that the Karaites are "not Jews" (see above quote and linkThe Karaites: Challengers of Rabbinic Authority: ). This is a well-known position, and the Israeli Chief rabbinate cannot change that. It is, perhaps, much like the issue of welcoming back the Ethiopian Falashas back into the fold of Judaism in Israel today, as the intention is to "bring back" any "lost Jews". Do Karaites today really think that the Orthodox rabbis of today have "renounced" the views of RABBI Saadia Gaon one of their greatest rabbis whom they revere for his scholarship? What about Karaites who vehemently insist that "they are NOT Jews" (see above quotes and links) are they to be believed or not? So which is it? IZAK 08:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: THat is not correct. Anan was dead before Saadia was born.

Rickyrab says: Some Karaites feel they're Jewish, and others feel they aren't. Likewise, many Orthodoxim feel that the Karaites aren't, but some might feel they are. Definitions of people as Jewish or not, de facto if not de jure, are in the eyes of the beholder. From this vantage point, the Orthodox opinions are understandable, seeing as they consider Saadia Gaon's opinions worth thinking about; likewise, the Karaites' own opinions are also understandable, seeing as they don't follow Rabbi Saadia Gaon. Rickyrab 20:44, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: Izak, If you'd like I can post the full information about the Karaites who don't say they are Jewish. It's about 4 pages long though.--Yoshiah ap 02:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Rickyrab says:In spite of common assumptions, is there really more than one Jewish religion? Conventional wisdome has it that there is only one Jewish religion, and that conventional wisdom is accepted throughout the Jewish world. However, what if Karaism is Jewish, yet is distinct enough to be a religion in its own right? That would put Judaism up there with Christianity as being alleged groups of religions (such as Catholicism, Protestantism, Anabaptism, and so forth). On the other hand, we Reform Jews do not necessarily follow all Rabbinical laws, but we follow those that make sense to us, after careful study. If the practices of Karaitism/ Karaite Judaism are essentially Jewish, then their lack of allegiance to Rabbinical laws shouldn't take away from Karaites being essentially Jewish. Rickyrab 20:24, 5 May 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Ricky: What about those Karaites who INSIST that they are NOT "Jews" at all, but "Karaites"? How would you deal with that (them)? (Obviously, "Yoshiah" does not fit into this group, as he claims to be a "Jewish Karaite".) This is all part of the confusion surrounding the question of how Judaism views Karaism. IZAK 07:41, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Yoshiah says: If one would say that Karaites and Karaism are not Jewish, they must by the same logic also classify Reform Jews, Conservative Jews, Secular Jews, the Falashas, etc. as non-Jewish, despite the fact that 85% of Jews are non-Orthodox.

Simshalom says: Folks:In this regard see the discussions in the article on Jew and Judaism for a summary of the various groups' defintions of "Who is a Jew?" and "What is Judaism?". The problem with the Karaites is that since there are KNOWN Karaite groups who INSIST that they are NOT Jewish, which throws doubt on other Karaite's claims that they are "Jewish". Who do you believe? After all, if a Reform rabbi would wake up one morning and say he was "not Jewish" any more, but had chosen a gentile "prophet of god", such as Buddha, and would not mind to see his congregants become "Jewish Buddhists" yet still able to observe the Torah since they like it, but as a requirement for membership they must ALWAYS rant against the "big bad Talmud", and 100 years later there is still a cult of his "Jewish Buddhists" around, neither that rabbi nor his subsequebt devotees could be classed as "Jewish" in the traditional historical sense of the word according to ANY stream of Judaism, be it Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, or secular. It would be called a schism at "best" or a new religion at "worst". IZAK 07:36, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

There never was "one" Karaite group in history
See: http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t10/ht110.htm
THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD: CHAPTER VII: THE EIGHTH CENTURY. THE DOMINION OF THE GAONIM. THE OPPOSITION OF THE KARAITES. THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A SECT OF THAT NAME.

"...As their doctrines, however, were not fixed, and as almost every age the Karaites were split into diverse sects, therefore they could not resist or make headway against the Talmud, whose strength is, to those who rightly understand it, that it has never purposed to make fixed rules, to last for all ages; deliberation and reasoning concerning the Halakhas according to the circumstances, is the principle of the Talmud; and the saying of the Talmud, "even when they say to you of right that it is left, and of left that it is right, thou shalt not swerve from the commandment," shows the opinion of the Talmud, that the practice of the ceremonies and precepts is dependent on the time, place and other circumstances. With this power the Talmud combatted all its enemies, and was victorious."IZAK 07:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"The controversies between the Jews and the Karaites are recorded in many books, Karaite and Talmudistic, from the age of R. Saadia the Gaon, and his opponent Sahal ben Matzliah to the present time. In them can also be found the history of their alternate triumphs. But this is not our task here: we will remark only that from the days of R. Saadiah the Gaon, when the Rabbis had begun to have polemics with them, can be seen the deep mark the Karaite literature left on the Rabbinical one. Philosophy was from that time used in conjunction with the Torah; many Gaonim followed R. Saadiah's method of harmonizing the Torah and the philosophy of that time, that they should seem as mutual enemies. So the Karaites charged such men with infidelity, but others were themselves compelled to imitate them, and called in the aid of philosophy, of the divinity, to interpret the texts of the Holy Scriptures."IZAK 07:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"The effect of the Karaites on the Talmudist Rabbis is made evident also in this: that since their time the rabbis also began to write down fixed Halakhas taken from the Talmud, that the readers should not otherwise by error adopt the Karaite rules, made by the Karaite leaders, which they might mistake for the rules of the Talmud itself, since they could not know the whole Talmud by heart. They composed, therefore, the "Halakhoth G'doloth" (Great Halakhas), "Sh'iltoth'derab A'bai" (Queries of R. Ahai), for the sake of the students, who could not themselves wade through the whole Talmud. But thereby they opposed the spirit and object of the Talmud itself, that the Halakhas should be matter for discussion, and modified in accordance with the requirements of the time and place. As soon as the Gaonim had permitted to propound decisions of the Halakhas, and to fix them, those Gaonim, who succeeded them, were compelled to teach that these decisions of the former Gaonim, even though given without proofs, are holy for the people, as if giver, from Mount Sinai. This circumstance added fuel to the quarrel of the Karaites, and gave them new points of attack. The hope of some great men of the nation to reconcile the Jews with the Karaites became naught, for although the Karaites quarrelled among themselves, and split into rival sects, yet they all equally hated the Talmud, reviled it, and insulted it, styling the two colleges, at Sura and Pumbeditha, "the two harlots" spoken of in Ezekiel, who (claimed they) referred to these colleges in his prophecy." IZAK 07:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"'According to Makrizi there were among the Karaites ten sects, differing from each other in their opinions, practice and festivals; they had no permanence, some rose, some fell, and in the tenth century only five large sects were found, named:'
1. Jod'anim or Jodganim.
2. Makrites or Magrites.
3. Akhbarites.
4. Abn Amronites or Tiflisites.
5. Balbekites.

"The reader will find in the books of Jost, Grätz, Fürst, Geiger, and in Hebrew, in "Bequoreth L'toldoth Hakaraim" an account of the particulars about which the various sects of the Karaites differed, and also the names of their leaders." IZAK 07:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

"We do not think it necessary to give these details in this place. We will mention for illustration the latest sect, which wished to fix the day of Atonement only on a Saturday every year, because it is said "Sabbath Sabbathan," which means a Sabbath of rest (Lev. xxiii. 32), and they translate "a Sabbath of Sabbaths," and the first day of Passover on Thursday.
Thus each Karaite sect celebrated the Biblical festivals on different days, for each sect construed the texts in the Pentateuch by preference without being able to come to an agreement.

"Thus also in respect of the observation of Sabbath: for some Karaites, their houses were during the Sabbath their prisons, where they did sit in darkness, and which they could not leave when their neighbors happened not to be Karaites like themselves.
"In this we see the power of the Talmud, that even those who were inimical to it or hostile to a large portion of it, Halakhas never had different opinions concerning the festivals and other such things, important to one particular nation; for they could not deny its general tradition..."IZAK 07:01, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

- posted by Izak @ 5:38 AM