Jewish, Jewish, Everywhere, & not a drop to drink
Thursday, January 23, 2003
GARDEN OF EDEN:
ADAM AND EVE AND ORIGINAL SIN:
GOOD AND EVIL:
Hi, would you be interested in discussing
Jewish subjects? Please let me know. Thanks.
Sure, but I must admit, i'm a bit of a novice on Jewish faith.
SimShalom: Well Noticed you listed Judaism on your ICQ
profile, so I thought you might have some
interest...so what brings to this interest?
The same reason most people take an interest
in religion... okay, maybe not the same reason, but the search for truth.
sounds very impressive to me. Most people are not like this .So what issues are you
At the moment, the Garden of Eden. I'm
infatuating with the fable and the symbolism
behind it. The concept of wisdom and its
price. The idea that G_d orchestrated the
entire affair to introduce the element of sin
and choice into the world.
O wow, boy , you really are on the hot trail.
Yes, these are foundation of the Jewish faith
as well as the world.
How did you manage to pick that point. Are you
very conversant with the Bible?
Not really, no. I'm not particularly
"religious," when it comes to organization.
I've read some of it and sought my own truth
without the aid of outside influence.
Are you familiar with the different Jewish
"denominations" in America, such as Reform
,Conservative , Orthodox?
No. I know "of" them, but not where they
Well, it is only the Orthodox who take the
Creation narrative that you mentioned above,
seriously. The others brush it of as some kind
of quasi-primitive myths.
Learn something new everyday...
In fact if you were to ask the average
"Reform" or "Conservative" Jew about it, they
would laugh it of, probably never even given
more than ten seconds of thought, if that, if
you press them on it , they say, hey, we are
not like the Catholics(sic) who believe in
"Original sin"...Little asking , where did the
"Catholics" get it from in the first place,
from the Jewish Bible, so it throws them for
as loop, if they are interested at all.:-/
T: *nods* I know that. It's a bit of a
different spin, and one I particularly don't
I don't agree with Catholicism in a lot of
ways, actually. For a religion of love and
tolerance; they sure are fearful and
I'm not talking about the merits of the
system. I am just pointing out the "origins"
of Biblical narratives, that both Catholics
and Orthodox Jews take seriously (an "odd
Don't they differ in perception and
interpretation of these narratives?
Catholicism has used the Garden of Eden fable
to vilify women throughout history. What is
the Jewish slant? Does it differ?
You can't really ask for a "Jewish" slant as
such since there are so many variant views
amongst the Jews, ranging from Secular to
But the interpretation of classical JUDAISM
as recorded in the traditional texts such as
Talmud,Midrash,and other old writings, is that
Eve was indeed held responsible for her act of
eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and
Evil and thereby bringing death into the
So it wasn't a Catholic's only idea.
There are consequences to every action, but if
G_d baited her into it-- interesting.
Not God, the SERPENT baited her. Nowhere in
the narrative does it say that God baited her
at all. On the contrary, he gave CLEAR
orders(actually a one and only commandment)
not eat from the Tree of Knowledge, yet she
ate from after falling for the SERPENT'S
arguments. And then she gave it to her
Catholicism is NOT a very original faith.
In fact Christianity is just a PLAGIARIZED
form of "Up_side down " Judaism:'-(
G_d did it by proxy. He's the one who created
the serpent, and if he didn't want the apple
eaten that bad he would've denied the serpent
access to Eve. By leaving the element of
choice there, he's guilty of a very
Miltonian-like neglect evil, when he could've
easily stopped it himself.
Ah, but wait, the text EXPLICITLY says that
God literally created Adam in His (God's) own
IMAGE, thus it is Adam , and by extension Eve
who are God's creations. How the Serpent got
there is not clear at all. It's like asking
how did evil get into this world. Well since
God is NOT evil, he certainly would not have
put evil into this world.
So how the serpent gets into the picture is
not clear, and in fact remains a perplexing
If God created the universe and there is only
one power in the universe that has the power
of creation, then who created the Serpent if
it isn't clear that God didn't create it?
Isn't it feasible that God created evil?
Isn't it feasible that evil is a subjective
perception? If everything comes from God and
God is everything, then wouldn't the serpent
also be of God?
Well, they say that in the absolute sense God
cannot produce anything that is negative...in
the absolute truth , if one would be able to
get to that level, it would become evident
that ultimately there is no such thing as
EVIL, it is just a kind of "apparition" that
has deadly nuisance value. So God remains
ABSOLUTE INCARNATE without any blemish oh
By the way, the excuse that 'The Devil made me
do it" is as much not an excuse for Eve as it
would be for any common criminal to say this
and shirk punishment.
ABSOLUTE GOOD INCARNATE
*nods* Right, and that's where I differ from
Judeo-Christian faith in that I don't believe
in the paradigm of good and evil. It seems
subjective and therefore, silly to classify in
Evil can be classified as harming another at
its simplest form whereas Good is helping
another. What about the grey areas? Tough
love. Is forcing a heroin addict into
solitary confinement so he can suffer
withdrawal and save his own life an evil act?
You're hurting him temporarily...
I don't know about tough love.
But if you go by the words of the Narrative in
Genesis that you brought up, the text clearly
says that the tree they ate from was a the
'Tree of Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL' and that
God feared that they would be a danger to know
'GOOD and EVIL" as He (god) does, so he
expelled them from the Garden Of Evil,and
forced them to lead mundane lives.
*nods* Why didn't he just banish the concept
of good and evil? Get rid of the tree
completely. The law of probability says that
if you put a cookie jar in front of two
children and say don't eat it, they're gonna
eat it eventually. They may sit and be nice
for awhile, but eventually, one of them is
gonna get curious and have a cookie.
If you eliminate the cookie jar from the
equation, then you won't have that problem.
Well that is heaven, where all is good and the
angels perform whatever they are told to do
without question like angelic robots.
Hover, since God wants people to EARN their
REWARDS by THEIR CHOICES and ACTIONS, they are
forced to chose in this world and thereby
merit rewards either in this world or the
hereafter (In Judaism it's mostly in the World
the purpose of all human history for thane
last 5,763 has been to rectify Adam's sin
At the end of this world according To Judaism
when the world reaches 6,000 years there will
arive a Messianic age wher Evil will be
eradicated and all people will see the TRuth
and know God. But that is in the future. In
our world as we kinow, we must make the tough
choices between doing Good and or Evil. And
evil acts lead to serious punishments , namely
Death or capital punishmenyt being the most
serious \consequence person has to undergo if
they do that which is absolutel evil, such as
killing another human being.
It's that paradigm of good and evil I still
don't agree with. Morality differs from
region to region, and has no actual base in
the human condition. Do you think it's a
function of the conscious mind.
That last was supposed to be a question.
Oh we can speculate till the chickens come
home to roost, which they are doing since it's
But it's not a matter of just making things
If Judaism be a religion of truth then what
it's teachings in the Bible say have to be
truth. Otherwise anyone can make up any
In the Western World, morality and notions
about Good and evil are base de firmly in the
Judea -Christian Heritage rooted in the Bible.
*nods* Western morality, yes.
Ahhh, my thoughts are scatted. So many
potential tangents. *Laughs*
Well just bring yourself back to that powerful
beginning of the Creation narrative in
Genesis. According to all schools of Jewish
mysticism it's in those first narratives that
all the mysteries, and answers to Creation are
to be found.
*nods* I'll be sure to give it another read.
And hey, although i'm not leaving, thanks for
this conversation. I truly appreciate it.
Religion isn't a feasible topic of discussion
in polite circles, and i'm sure we'll be able
to learn lots from one another in the future.
Ok fine, thanks for the chat.
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