Debate:
ISRAEL-PALESTINIAN
STRUGGLE:
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SimShalom (9:26 PM) :
Hi, how are you doing?
On (9:27 PM) :
I'm fine thank you and yourself?
SimShalom (9:29 PM) :
Ok thanks. So what do you make of recent developments?
On (9:30 PM) :
Which developments in particular?
SimShalom (9:31 PM) :
shuttle and Israel
On (9:32 PM) :
well the shuttle was a terrible accident. As for Israel. I think that the conflict is going to be over by the end of the year
SimShalom (9:32 PM) :
which year was that ? when the messiah comes...?
On (9:34 PM) :
No by the end of 2003. The wall is going to go up. You have a defacto Palestinian state. The Palestinians have lost their only bargaining chip (violence). And gradually (ie over the next few decades) relations between Israel and Palestine will normalize
SimShalom (9:36 PM) :
The "wall" won't work, they never do. The great Wall of China failed to stem the Mongols.
The Berlin Wall became a disgrace, and a symbol of freedom denied, and wall with the Arabs will simply be an 'illusion"
On (9:37 PM) :
Well I think the wall will be a little different than the Great Wall. And even that worked for centuries. This wall will simply be a way to keep suicide bombers out and be armed in ways that can intercept rockets. Honestly with this wall eveyone wins. Don't forget that the majority of the population on both sides want peace and this seems to be the only feasible way to achieve it.
On (9:39 PM) :
The Berlin wall was also different because it was a barrier to political ideologies. Here on both sides of the wall you will have versions of democracy
SimShalom (9:39 PM) :
The Palestinians are a long way from wanting peace...they still feel they can "win" thru insurrection and mayhem...
On (9:40 PM) :
only a small minority on both sides want conflict, unfortunately they are both influential. But public opnion is resoundingly for peaceful coexistence.
SimShalom (9:40 PM) :
Do you honestly think that after this last bloody episode, it's taken about two years to retake the West Bank, the Israelis are just going to stroll away hoping for some promise of 'democracy"?
On (9:43 PM) :
it doesn't matter to Israel whether or not the Palestinian government is a democracy. I'm just saying that that is the way it seems to be headed thus you won't have a wall symbolizing a barrier between capitalism and communism. The future Palestinian state has no reason to pursue anything but democracy. The other Arab states would have to abandon their monarchies whereas the Palestinians do not have a royal family
SimShalom (9:44 PM) :
Oh they have a "King" Arafat who reigns supreme, more than most monarchs today...
On (9:46 PM) :
Arafat isn't a King. To these people he's a hero. He's the first person to ever give these people a voice and to show them that they should stand up for themselves. The conflict right now isn't a result of his actions, its a result of his inactions.
SimShalom (9:48 PM) :
He is a very active man , all his life he has been an activist.
He established the PLO in the 60s. Then went on to do hijackings of planes in 70s, in the 8os he commanded his army in Lebanon, and in the 90s he got his way with Oslo etc and an invite back to "his" "homeland , he is very active in the extreme...
On (9:49 PM) :
He was active. Like I said he was a hero to the Palestinians. Now the situation among his own people has escalated beyond his control
SimShalom (9:50 PM) :
Yes it has, but he is still very much at the center of where it's at for the Palestinians, his immobility is also the Palestinians immobility. What has happened to him is exactly what's happened to his people.
On (9:51 PM) :
Exactly a small group of fundamentalists have caused a war that most on both sides do not want. Moreover, Barak was just as complacent as Arafat in enacting the Oslo accords
SimShalom (9:54 PM) :
'Your "notion" of "fundamentalists" is flawed. Right now the Palestinians are in "Jihad" mode. that's why it's taking the whole Israeli army to control them, and even then it's tough..
On (9:55 PM) :
Its taking the entire Israeli army to "control" them because it is like looking for a needle in a haystack. The terrorists are not the Palestinians. A few Palestinians are the terrorists.
SimShalom (9:57 PM) :
Any army is just a "few" taken from majority, it's no different with fighters from the PLO Hamas, etc
On (9:59 PM) :
whats your point? The majority of the population doesn't want this conflict and they don't have the resources to go after the terrorists on their own.
SimShalom (10:01 PM) :
You're making them seem so reasonable.
Yes at one point they were calmer, that's because they did not feel the time was right for an uprising. The Intifada is a mass popular response it's not just a few trouble makers..
On (10:02 PM) :
I'm not "making them sound reasonable". They are reasonable as a majority. Moreover they have a valid cause to be fighting for.
SimShalom (10:05 PM) :
So if they have a "valid Cause " to fight for, are they not then by definition Israel's enemies and need to be treated as such? Until such time as they will be defeated in war, like all enemies eventually are (cause you don't want to be on the losing side), and after defeated THEN they will sue for peace and become pacified, not sooner, right now they are in battle mode so they are and enemy , men women and children.
On (10:08 PM) :
No. Both sides need to take responsibility for taking serious steps that led to escalation of the violence. And then they need to sit down at the bargaining table and make concessions. The worst thing you can do is try to passify a people using war that "by definition" makes you an aggressor and usually a villian.
SimShalom (10:12 PM) :
They are villains. They want to destroy the Jewish state , thru suicide bombings" stupid peace deals that are frauds, getting their people armed with weapons (by the Israelis yet), by launching Intifadas,
So like all villains they must learn that they cannot defeat the "good guys" The Jews. Only when they are totally defeated and sue for unconditional surrender, as with Nazi Germany and Japan, only then will Israel and America be able to create a democracy and enduring peace.
On (10:13 PM) :
You know the Nazis called the Jews villians too. You are being a racist. Moreover how do you explain the scores of Arab Israelis who live perfectly peacefully with the Jews
SimShalom (10:23 PM) :
The Arab Israelis have made peace with the fact that they WILL not defeat the Jews thru War. They learnt that in 1948. That's why when Not so the Palestinians, they think that they CAN win, so they fight on. so they must face the consequent security mi\Minster allowed some shootings of a few of them it was a serious matter. Not so the Palestinians. They see themselves as being "occupied" and need to fight back, this will only become
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On (10:26 PM) :
They _are_ occupied. And they are not the blood thirsty animals you seem to take them for
On (10:26 PM) :
Even Israel is calling it an occupation
SimShalom (10:27 PM) :
I did not say they are animals, I say that they are in "war" mode, that's their choice, and is in any war, they will be totally defeated,and only then can there be a real peace.
On (10:30 PM) :
Really and how many Israelis will have to die in your pacification? How many Palestinian children will have to die? They aren't in war mode. In a very real way they have been mistreated by the Jews from day one. In a very real way the Jews took land that once once their home. I'm not saying I agree with the Palestinian position but I do understand it. And I do understand that the majority of the Palestinians are caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one side is the Israeli military, and on the other is the terrorist minority that is propogating this conflict
SimShalom (10:33 PM) :
But you have chosen the luxury of the role of "impartial" objective observer.
Over there it's different.
Under the Barak govt who was willing to give them the most any Israeli leader ever offered, they still persisted in opening fire on Jerusalem's neighborhoods.
Just like they and their leaders made a calculated decision to shoot at the Israelis, they must now make a calculated decision to stop.
On (10:38 PM) :
Even if they did it wouldn't end the conflict. Which is why the wall would
On (10:40 PM) :
I suggest you read the January 25th issue of the Economist it presents a very clear analysis of the situation
SimShalom (10:41 PM) :
Oh, a wall cannot "cure" to feuding neighbors unless the decide to stop killing each other.
I have faith in the Israelis.
At this point I do not have faith in the Palestinians , they are going to need a long "cooling off " period.
How long did McArther rule Japan till he got a Japanese democracy going?
On (10:42 PM) :
its not about democracy. There is no question that a democracy will be the system of government that they choose.
SimShalom (10:43 PM) :
No question?
there is NOT a single democracy in the Arab world..why will they be different?
On (10:43 PM) :
Like I said there is no monarchy that needs to be overthrown. Arafat himself said that he would want a democracy
SimShalom (10:45 PM) :
What do you think Arab monarchs are, they are just yesterday's dictators who made themselves into "king", the point is, secular or religious, the Arabs are ruled by non-democratic governments, they all have a long way to go...
On (10:47 PM) :
You can't just paint all Arabs with this broad brush. Its racist, and quite frankly I find it insulting.
SimShalom (10:48 PM) :
Well which Arab lands are democratic??
The Search Is On (10:48 PM) :
Thats not the point. The point is that the Palestinians are not a typical case.
SimShalom (10:49 PM) :
Yes, they are WORSE
SimShalom (10:49 PM) :
Because they at literally at the throat of Israel...
On (10:50 PM) :
If there are more people like you at positions of power, at positions where decisions are made it gives me far less faith in the Jews.
SimShalom (10:50 PM) :
More dangerous when armed, because they , unlike far away Arabs can fire at Jewish neighborhoods...
SimShalom (10:51 PM) :
They can pollute and poison Israel's water supply...
SimShalom (10:51 PM) :
They can easily sneak across and blow themselves up...
SimShalom (10:52 PM) :
And even their own Arab brothers hate them...
SimShalom (10:52 PM) :
The Jordanians killed them out in 1970 and expelled them
On (10:52 PM) :
Why is it that friends of mine in Israel can be friends with Palestinians? Why is it that I can be friends with and study along side Arabs?
Because the call to arms is not pervasive. People want peace, they want to go on with their lives. But the ability to do that is destroyed by a few ignorant militants
SimShalom (10:52 PM) :
They destroyed the good land of Lebanon...
On (10:53 PM) :
Doesn't that tell you that they are a land of refugees just like the Jewish settlers?
On (10:54 PM) :
There is no place in a multicultural society for those who place judgements on a group as a result of the actions of the few.
SimShalom (10:54 PM) :
No amount of "moral equivalency between Jewish "settlers" undertaking Zionism's mission of settling the land which Jews have been doing for over a hundred years actively..
On (10:54 PM) :
What?
SimShalom (10:56 PM) :
The "settlers" are just doing what Zionists have been doing for a hundred years if not longer...
Even in the time of Moses , the "settlers" being the Children of Israel had to expel the people from Canaan in order to create a final home for the Jews.
On (10:57 PM) :
I think it would be in everyones best interestes to ignore what people did in the Bible. And when the Zionists were working to establish Israel the Jews and Arabs and all the people in that land were living in peace.
SimShalom (10:59 PM) :
No they were not living in peace.
The Arabs were very hostile to the new Zionists coming over from Russia.
They were hostile to Jews coming over during the Holocaust.
And they are hostile now to the Jews living in the sea of Muslims of the middle east
On (11:01 PM) :
From what I have read they did live in peace. But regardless. I think they have a valid cause. I think that violence is their only bargaining chip. And I think that if a war is necessary then both sides need to stop targeting civilians. It needs to be military targets versus military targets.
SimShalom (11:03 PM) :
What military targets?
They are all living and dress as civilians.
The uniformed Palestinian police "acts dumb", and they move with freedom thru the population.
So it's a tough job rooting them out.
Innocents will get hurt under such circumstances.
On (11:04 PM) :
Please the bombing of a building to carry out an assasination of an individual you know is there is intentionally putting civilians at risk. That mission could have been carried out with a sniper.
SimShalom (11:06 PM) :
Again, you are talking with detachment from the practical tactical and military realities.
If the Israelis send men down an alley they always face the threat of an ambush especially if they are on the trail of a hot suspect..air power is a necessity.
On (11:07 PM) :
A practical reality is that Mossad is the best intelligence organization in the world. I would be shocked if they didn't have agents in the Palestinian territories that could carry out the mission. Moreover it is not difficult to disguise Israeli soldiers to infiltrate the region.
On (11:08 PM) :
You have the same problem as many Jews do. Not everything Israel does is right.
SimShalom (11:09 PM) :
In wartime, you support your team. It's not logical to do otherwise.
On (11:10 PM) :
that is one of the most ignorant things I have ever heard. "Your team" could make terrible mistakes. The power of democracy is in the scrutiny of the public if you blindly follow along then decision makers can act with impunity.
SimShalom (11:11 PM) :
Don't worry, you have nothing to fear, in Israel they have a Knesset with Israeli as well as ARAB parties to monitor the government. That's their job
Your job is to be loyal to your people.
On (11:13 PM) :
My Job?
My job is to think freely for myself. to analyze things rationally. And to inform people of my opinions which they can incorporate into thoughts of their own. Thats the job of a writer.
SimShalom (11:14 PM) :
Ok, so write..but the people living there have to face the reality of bullets coming at them from "occupied" Palestine
On (11:15 PM) :
and occupied palestine needs to face the reality of a constant foreign military presence. And I don't know who you are to criticize. What the hell are you doing to support your position?
SimShalom (11:16 PM) :
"my" position being what?
On (11:17 PM) :
I don't know. But you are criticizing me for being a writer. I'm sure people who argue things without thinking through their own points have a place as well.
SimShalom (11:18 PM) :
I am merely DESCRIBING and EXPLAINING what the Israelis are doing.
SimShalom (11:18 PM) :
And you seem to be taken with the Arab view of things?
On (11:19 PM) :
no not at all. I think the suicide bombings are terrible. I'm just trying to look at things analytically. Which is something you seem to have trouble with.
SimShalom (11:21 PM) :
I am starting off with the assumption that we are dealing with a "conflict" actually a civil war, and as such must be "analyzed" as all wars are...until there resolution by the surrender of one side and accepting the terms of the victors...
On (11:22 PM) :
but thats not how all wars end at all. Look at the recent resolution of the conflict between England and the IRA. That could have gone on for many more decades without either side surrenduring.
SimShalom (11:26 PM) :
The IRA lost its strategic arms supplier..the late not lamented USSR.
Then they faced pressure from the US .
And it is still a smoldering conflict.
The Arab Israeli conflict is more complex.
It involves a huge are, namely the Middle east,
and smack dab in the middle of it is Israel with its local enemies the Palestinians, egged on by Islamic REGIMES (not just individual fanatics" ) such as Iran to go out and kill Jews...
The Search Is On (11:29 PM) :
The IRA conflict was solved because thats what people wanted and its not really smoldering. Yes the Arab situation is more complex, but it can be solved peacefully. Moreover it is in Israels best interest to do so. For no reason other than that within a few years the Arabs will be the majority in Israel.
SimShalom (11:32 PM) :
Numbers don't matter.
The bottom line is tiny Israel has always faced a sea of Arabs.
Oh yes, I am sure that the situation can calm down, once they see that violence will get them nowhere. So far as a result of the iNtifada they have lost what gains they made since Oslo in 1993. Now the accords are dead .
As Ababa said, that famous quote:
"The Arabs never fail to miss an opportunity"
SimShalom (11:32 PM) :
Abba Eban
SimShalom (11:33 PM) :
they have never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity
The Search Is On (11:36 PM) :
Yeah I got the quote. But just because israel has been the underdog doesn't mean they are completely without blame
SimShalom (11:39 PM) :
You know , doing a searching moral inventory of oneself is most noble, an quintessentially religious , as this is what is supposed to be done on Yom Kippur when God examines the deeds of men and nothing is hidden from has omniscient eye. So it's good to be "ruthlessly" objective.
However, to do so in a manner that actually emboldens a group of people who are killing any Israelis thru bombings is downright dangerous and very self deluding.
On (11:42 PM) :
Gods omniscient eye? You know if you want to discuss God thats a whole other conversation and one that is very directly related to what I am studying so I know more about it than politics. I'm not emboldening the terrorists, nor am painting with a brush so broad that I'm reprimanding the Arabs who are against their actions.
SimShalom (11:47 PM) :
To me, when someone talks of the Palestinians being "occupied" akin to the "occupation" that Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis, I realize that person does not have the slightest clue about EITHER what happened under Nazi Germany and what kind of monsters they were, NOR do they grasp the nature of the Israeli army, one made up Jews who know well what it means to be "occupied" and who know that the Palestinians could have had coexistence
On (11:49 PM) :
yes they could have had coexistence but both sides are responsible for that not hapenning. I didn't say the occupation was the same as in Germany in fact it is quite different but an occupation nonetheless
SimShalom (11:49 PM) :
There are no death camps to exterminate any Arabs.
Israel has offered them friendship from its inception in 1948.
In 1947 they rejected partition of Western Palestine, now they want to come back to it...are they nuts or something? Do they really think Israel is going to let camp on their "back lawn"?
On (11:53 PM) :
Yeah well maybe they realized their mistake
SimShalom (11:54 PM) :
They are not as "mature" as you...
SimShalom (11:55 PM) :
They are greedy and cunning..and grabbing at straws, even if it means their own self-destruction as a respectable people..who wants to deals with Jihad warriors?
On (11:55 PM) :
whatever. You are set in your ways and views. It is impossible to argue with someone who is stubbornly clinging to a point. I suggest you read that issue of the Economist. It is very eyeopening to the true nature of the situation
SimShalom (11:57 PM) :
And who pray issue the opinions of the "Economist"? Some "Lord muck on toast" in London?
On (11:58 PM) :
What!? its one of the most well respected publications in the world. It is often accused of being overly right-wing, but this particular analysis was very unbiased.
On (0:01 AM) :
I need to go as I have class early tomorrow morning. But you really need to get out of this intentional ignorance you've grown comfortable with.
SimShalom (0:04 AM) :
Who cares what they say, right wing Semite wing,
this is not about "left" or "right", (both of which by the way believe that "might is right" but that another story as you would say)..
This is about the survival of five million Jews in a sea of hundreds of millions of Arabs and anti-Semite)yes Arab antisemites) who want to wipe the Jew off the face of the Earth,,ala Osama Bin Ladin and the 'wonderful Whabies" of Saudi Arabia( a "true" democra
On (0:06 AM) :
There is nothing in the Arab faith saying they should be anti-semitic. This is a conflict over land not ideologies. I was merely referring to right wing literature because you seemed to discount the Economist as being irrelevant for some reason.
SimShalom (0:09 AM) :
Don't delude yourself...the Arabs are not a nice amiable crowd of college students out carousing...they are devout believers in their faith, and no matter how they behaved in the past by being willing to have Jews in their midst, since the establishment of the State of Israel this has not been so, and they are currently under the SPELL of their Imams and Ayatollahs(as in Iran) who preach an Islamic "gospel" of anti-Semitism against ALL things Jewish
On (0:10 AM) :
And what do you call extremist Jews who preach against anything Arab?
SimShalom (0:13 AM) :
Such as who?
Who preaches against anything Arab?
there are no such people..every Jew love Arab falafel!

- posted by Izak @ 1:32 AM