Jewish, Jewish, Everywhere, & not a drop to drink
Wednesday, April 09, 2003

what do you think of all these jews supporting the republican party and george bush because of his policy on iraq? ie getting rid of one of Israel's enemies? do you think its a mistake?
SimShalom :
Hi , how are you good hearing from you, let me think a mo`....
Z :
sorry, can you repeat that..I closed the box accidentally
SimShalom :
What's the "mistake" exactly?
According to who is it a mistake?
SimShalom :
I first said hi how are you good to hear from you...
Z :
its good to talk to you as well, jews have traditionally been democratic because we believe in democratic principles, as opposed to republicans who are big christian coilition people only out to make a dollar at the expense of many things including the poor and the environment

SimShalom :
who wait...both Republicans and Democrats are equally democratic with a small "d"...no-one seriously doubts that. They abide by all the rules of this great American democracy. If their leaders don't. they can be impeached and this applies to everyone...
The Republicans are the party of Abraham Lincoln who freed the slaves of the South...a great act of true democracy...the Democratic Party was and still is the home of Southerners who were part of the confederacy...there are no "good guys" and "bad guys" here....
Z :
Lincoln was a libertarian or something to that effect but not a repbulican, George Bush is by no means democratic, stripping away congresses rights, invading peoples' privacy and giving taxpayers money to religious organizations(see separation of church and state), the party meanings have changed from lincoln's days but the republicans are clearly pushing through legislation on the coattails of the war on terrorism that only hurt us
SimShalom :
Well have you not realized that since Sept 11th 2001, when the USA was attacked on George Bush's watch this thereby being an act no less than the attack on Pearl harbor by the Japanese on Dec 7,1941 which brought the Democratic president FDR to declare war on Japan and it lead to many Japanese citizens being locked up, as the country went on a war footing...this is no less than then, it is a Jihad by Arabs against the USA and now the US has sent its armed forces to fight Arab terrorism at its root...and there may be more of this...just as when fighting Nazi Germany, they did not stop when they liberated France they went on and liberated more countries...this is war baby
Z :
yeah, I agree with you, but I feel differently than you do...why did we attack afghanistan when they had little or nothing to do with the terrorists, why didn't we attack Saudi Arabia as the majority were from there, there is no arugment that we should go to war against terrorism, we just can't win, its like the war on drugs, it won't ever stop, this is not something that will ever end
Z :
we haven't seen enough evidence that Iraq is a threat to anyone but itself
Z :
they said themselves that Iraq is weaker now than they were in the Gulf War, why can they hurt us if they are so weak?
SimShalom :
Wait, Afghanistan was the main base for Bin Ladin and his gangs, and the govt there the Taliban was one of the most extreme terrorist states, so that was job number one.
Job number two is Iraq under the tyrant Saddam who launched two wars one against Iran that killed about a million Iraqis and Iraniinains, in 1980, then in 1991 he invaded and pillaged Kuwait in an unprovoked attack. He also launched scuds at Israel causing great damage in a country not even on his borders....so he has been targeted just as Israel bombed his nuclear reactor in 1980...it just took the united States 23 years to catch up...now they are going to finish the job, we cant wait for another attack , even tho it may come from some fanatics. but the main regimes have to be dealt with and George Bush is doing a good job at this...Saudi Arabia' is a two faced cowardly non_entity...their time will come soon...
Z :
what do you think of the fact that after Iraq, we might stay in the region and attack other countries such as Syria, don't you think that we should be focusing more on a nation such as North Korea that is a direct threat rather than Iraq which has had 23 years with no threat to us...why not give them another year...
SimShalom :
anyhow it's an academic point now. Iraq as it was is no longer, it will now be controlled by the USA and the UK until a truly DEMOCRATIC govt can be created following elections and creation of a parliament with political parties that function in peace.
Of course you cannot overlook the fact that Iraq sits on about a third of the world crude oil that is vital to the economies of the West, so that has been secured...which by the way should make the Saudi Arabians nervous as they will loose their monopoly.
As for the MADMAN who "runs" North Korea, and they worship such a "god"???...he is surrounded by mighty Japan and South Korea...they will kick his ass in way before the USA has to come in and give him some "shock therapy"....let him starve his people to death if he thinks that's better than having peace with America and hitting easy street...they are the last STALINIST state on Earth, the second last one was Iraq and its has now gone belly up...thanks to the US marines and Army and Air force...
SimShalom :
Look at this:
when you have some time:
From: http://www.ou.org/ The Orthodox Union
articles & essays
PARDES Project : War

By Rabbi Yaacov Haber.

Thoughts on Iraq- Rabbi Yaacov Haber
“To everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under the heaven; a time to be born, a time to die… a time to kill, and a time to heal… a time to love, and a time to hate… a time of war, and a time of peace. (Koheles 3: 1-8)

Our first encounter with Iraq - Babel - is early on in the book of Breishis. The men and women of what we now call Iraq said let us build a tower so high that we will conquer the Heavens and the Earth. They had peace, they had harmony -they all spoke the same language they understood each other they agreed with each other but they were ridiculously stupid. They had total disregard for human life. The Midrash taught that if a brick would fall they would all mourn, but if a man would fall off the building they would laugh. They spoke to themselves and agreed to all the wrong conclusions. G-d’s answer; conflict. They no longer spoke the same language. They no longer could live in their agreeable ivory tower. They conflicted and found truth. From this conflict came forth Avrohom Avinu.

Though it does not initially seem so, conflict can be purposeful and constructive. By shaking up an unchallenged truth one removes a force that can destroy the entire world.

Shake up the givens. Avrohom Avinu was the first iconoclastic citizen of the world. The Iraqi’s need to be shaken. The Al -Quada needs to be rattled. Those who plan takeover of the Heavens and the Earth need to be shaken - and we too need to be shaken. I ask myself daily if our Synagogue services are done in the best way possible, or are we all just agreeing to remain with the familiar? Are our schools educating the right way, or are we too afraid to change? Do we celebrate our weddings and Bar Mitzvas correctly, or does it not make sense to spend fifteen thousand dollars an hour to party with our friends? Torah was borne out of conflict. Civilized society is a product of war.

Rav Kook in his comments on WWI wrote: When there is a great war in the world, the power of the Messiah is aroused. The time of song has arrived, the cutting down of tyrants, the wicked perish from the world and the voice of the turtledove is heard in our Land. At the cessation of the war, the world is renewed in a new spirit, a new light and the coming of the Messiah is revealed even more…. (Orot - the War 1). Shake up is good!

It IS interesting that “a time for war” in Solomons words come before “a time for peace”. Conflict brings out a new light. Major wars bring light onto Jerusalem. Conflict is very difficult but it may be Gods way of bringing a new light into the world.

Please pray with me that this should be a bloodless war. Our own soldiers should return from battle successful and unharmed. That the boundaries of Israel and our brothers and sisters who live there remain safe and secure. That the cause of true peace be advanced in the world and that we should witness the day when “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war no more.”

I grew up in the sixties. Viet Nam was all around us. I can remember when our next door neighbors, in Buffalo, NY flew a flag at half mast because their son was killed in action. War was bad. War meant death, misery and the suffering of innocent children. On campuses across the country there were anti-war rallies. Life magazine carried 11 x 17 shots of the unthinkable. I can remember a huge billboard challenging: Imagine they called a war and no one showed up.

Yet, when the sight of blood stopped staring me in the face I began to think more clearly. Would America be the wonderful country that it is if not for battle? Would the Nazi tyranny have stopped if it were not for World War II? Would the war have stopped if not for the bombing of Hiroshima? Would Israel exist if not for war? Will it continue to exist without a war?

The development of the world as we know it has evolved through war. The Torah tells us that even the wonderful, peaceful Messianic era will be ushered in through the war of Gog and Magog!

Yet, war brings with it the most tragic scenes in history. In the words of one of the great Talmudic rabbis: “We all await the period of time before the coming of the Messaiah, yet I don’t want to be there.”

Pardes discussion points:

What is the difference between a Jewish soldier and a non-Jewish soldier? When a non-Jewish soldier shoots a gun, he is hoping that the bullet will find its mark. When a Jewish soldier shoots a gun, he is hoping that between the moment he pulls the trigger, and the moment the bullet hits, G-d will perform a miracle, and there will not have to be wars any more. (Rabbi Shlomo Carlebach).

1) To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die . . . a time to kill, and a time to heal . . . a time to love, and a time to hate . . . a time of war, and a time of peace. (Ecclesiastes 3: 1-8)

2) The name of G-d is “Peace.” (Shabbos 10b)


3) “G-d is a man of war” (Exodus 15:3).

4) When there is a great war in the world, the power of the Messiah is aroused. The time of song has arrived, the cutting down of tyrants, the wicked perish from the world, and the world is invigorated, and the voice of the turtledove is heard in our land. The individuals who are killed unjustly, in the revolution of the flood of the war, participate in the concept, “the death of the righteous atones.” They rise above in the root of life, and the essence of their lives brings a general quality of good and blessing to the overall structure of the world, in all its values and senses. Afterward, at the cessation of the war, the world is renewed in a new spirit, and the coming of the Messiah is revealed even more, for according to the extent of the war, in quantity and quality, so increases the expectation of the coming of the Messiah through it. The present world war (WWI - editor) is possessed with an awesome, great and deep expectation, attached to the changes of time, and the visible sign of the end, in the settlement of the Land of Israel. With great intellect, powerful courage, and piercing logic, with true longing and clear thought, we must receive the lofty content of the light of G-d that is revealed wondrously in the events of these wars. “Master of wars, sower of righteousness, producer of salvation, creator of cures, too awesome for praise, master of wonders who renews in his goodness daily the act of creation, let shine a new light on Zion, and let us all merit to receive its light.” (Rabbi Avraham Isaac Kook, Orot, “The War” 1).

5) War is not a last resort. The purpose of war is to coronate G-d in this world. The purpose...(There is more>>>see article below this one>>>)
Z :
I'll have to read it at a later time cause I have to go soon, You make a very strong case, and I agree with you in mnay ways, however, the Chinese, who you are forgetting, has made it clear that they will stick up for N Korea in the next war, in fact, in terms of their foreign policy, we are actually their next enemy in the free world...why not get rid of N Korea now and deal with China instead of giving them 23 years to build up a greater nuclear arsenal with which to threaten us...Whether or not Saddam was a bad guy and hurt people in that region-it is not the US's duty to police the world, that is what the UN is for...we need to protect our interests, and while oil is a big interest, I think nuclear attack is something we should be a bit fazed about

SimShalom :
Listen, China NEEDS the USA more than the us needs them...I saw a good article on this by the liberal Thomas Friedman of the NY times, who said that China SHOULD have the smarts to figure out that without the United States' CONSUMER market it will go bankrupt. The USA helps them manufacture and sell all that junk that is made in China from VCRs to condoms...they need us baby...they would be nuts to go to war against the USA...anyhow right now the Chinese are busy infecting everyone with bizarre flu viruses , and don't forget China is counterbalanced by its arch enemies India with over a billion people, and Russia that has a huge standing army of its own on its long Chinese border ready to zap them at a moments notice...
So it's these e"mid-range" countries that become too big for their britches and resort to terrorism, mostly coming from the Arabs and Islamic countries and they are so nuts and worked with their nutty Jihads that especially after what they did on Sep 1 2001, they cannot be ignored bur have to be eradicated as much as possible or certainly cut down to size...
Z :
Very good point...any theories on how or why the virus was started...popluation control perhaps? do you think the Aids virus was accidental or a plot ot ocntorl the population of people or homosexuals?
SimShalom :
Cmon gimme a break
lol sorry

Z :
you don't have to give me a long answer
Z :
just a sentence
Z :
you've been very enlightening though
SimShalom :
Aids came from people who had sex with monkeys in Africa and then these folks came over and spread it here...that's what I read in the New York Times sometime ago..
Z :
brought up some stuff I had't considered

Z :
but chinese virus= population control?
SimShalom :
Listen as far as China is concerned , they don't think like people here, they are quite cool about losing a few million people here, as in an Earthquake..or a few million there as when Mao tse Tung killed Millions of his won people in his crazy "Cultural revolution"..some "culture" to kill millions of your own fellow citizens for a crazy Marxist philosophy and bottom line to keep power for the "people's" communist party...these power the people you are dealing with...
I think George W. Bush is just the man the Doctor ordered....
Z :
so are you a republican then?
SimShalom :
SimShalom :
Just an audacious opinionated Jew like yourself
Z :
ok good stuff
SimShalom :
ok buddy..good luck with school and have a happy and healthy Passover...Chag Sameach
yeah Chag Sameach to you too
Z :
thanks for the talk
SimShalom :
Anytime , I really enjoyed speaking with you!

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