Sadat; Syria; Stalin; Saddam and all sorts of Anti-Semitism: A debate
Simshalom wrote most of this for Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew#Arab_and_Islamic

"Arab and Islamic

Islam and Judaism have a complex relationship. Jews have generally enjoyed the benefits of "protected" Dhimmi status under Islam; yet the political conflict between Muhammad and the Jews of Madina in the seventh century left ample ideological fuel for Islam and anti-Semitism through the centuries. During the Middle Ages, Jews had a better status in the Muslim world than in Christendom, though still short of full equality with Muslims. During the Holocaust the Middle East was in turmoil: in Egypt, with a Jewish population of 75,000, Anwar Sadat was imprisoned for conspiring with the Nazis to bring independence from Britain; the British-appointed Mufti of Jerusalem was in Berlin supporting Hitler; a coup briefly brought a pro-Axis government to power in Iraq terrifying Iraq's Jews; and the Jewish Stern Gang assassinated Lord Moyne for closing Palestine to Jewish immigration. The tensions of the Arab-Israeli conflict was also a factor in the rise of animosity to Jews all over the Middle East, as hundreds of thousands of Jews fled as refugees, the main waves being soon after the 1948 and 1956 wars. The vast majority of the Jews of Iraq fled in 1952."

Persecutions

JMabel says: Why are article sections "Christian Attitudes to Jews" and "Arab and Islamic Attitudes to Jews" subordinate to the heading "Victims of Anti-Semitism". Isn't this a bit tendentious? -- Jmabel 05:58, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Hi Jm, since 99% of the world's Jews live/d in countries where the other people are either Moslem or Christian, and that's where the persecutions took place, it's logical it seems. IZAK 21:10, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Raul says: And I'd be willing to bet that 100% of them lived somewhere on planet earth. Would we be justified in saying that they were persecuated because they lived on earth? Stats 101 - association does not imply causation. ?Raul654 21:58, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)


Simshalom says: Planet Earth? Now that is a stretch isn't it? It's not a case of "causality" either. The fact of the matter is that Jews have lived mostly in Europe (and now in the Americas) where MOST of the people were/are Christian/Catholic, and in the Middle East where Islam reigns. So what is so hard to figure? Japan, India or China, with huge populations and significant religions have not had any major long-term significant contact with Jews as a large sub-group in their midst, whereas Christians in Europe and Moslems in the Middle East always have had. IZAK 23:33, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Raul says: "Christian Attitudes to Jews" and "Arab and Islamic Attitudes to Jews" are under the heading of "Victims of Anti-Semitism". If all the jews lived in places that were ruled by Muslims or Christians, then *of course* that's where the anti-semitism would occur - they have to be there for it to happen. The implication is that they were persecuted *because* they were living alongside Christians and Muslims, which as Jmabel said, is very POV. ?Raul654 23:46, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says:I think the point is moot (mute?) as someone has re-titled the section in question: "Persecution", and then given it new sub-headings, "Nazi", "Christian" etc...that makes things fit contextually, it seems. IZAK 02:34, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Arab & Islamic

Jmabel says: Continuing on this, I added the following to the section that was recently retitled "===Arab and Islamic===". IZAK promptly removed it without explanation. Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, was killed in 1066 by a mob opposed to what they saw as undue power for a non-Moslem. However, it would have been unimaginable for a Jew even to have risen to a similar position in the Christian portion of Europe at that time.
Modern Arab and (to a lesser extent) other Moslem attitudes toward Jews are often colored by opposition to Zionism and to the policies (or even -- for some -- the existence) of the state of Israel. IZAK, are you questioning the factuality of this? If so, what exactly are you disputing? If not, what exactly is your objection to this material? -- Jmabel 00:11, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: The accuracy is OK, but the paragraphs are already laden with the main points of Jewish suffering in Moslem lands. What is gained by adding the info about Joseph HaNagid? On the latter points, there is already mention that the Arabs' negative attitudes are influenced by Zionism and Israel. This article's main focus is on "Jews" as an ethnicity in history until the present.IZAK 02:34, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Baath party

Mustaafa says: The Baath party stuff is misleading. Sure, Jews did also leave after the Baath party takeover in Iraq; but by that time, only 6,000 out of the original 130,000 were left[3], the rest having fled earlier, so Baathism can scarcely be claimed as a major factor. - Mustafaa 19:34, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Snowspinner says: Put in something about the earlier departure due to the pro-Nazi government then. Snowspinner 19:36, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustaaafa says: That isn't true either. Most Jews left in 1952-3, after the government which had briefly supported the Nazis had long since been thrown out by the British. The immediate reason Iraqi Jews left was because of the tensions of the Arab-Israeli conflict, although no doubt earlier history helped persuade them. - Mustafaa 19:48, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Snowspinner says: Hence my not putting it in. Regardless, the Baathist government caused the remainder of the Jews in Iraq to depart, and it's sensible to mention. Still, go ahead and put corrections in. Snowspinner 20:01, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sadat & Nazism

Mustaafa says: Oh, and http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/sadat.html agree with other sources: Sadat was imprisoned for being anti-British, not for being pro-German. - Mustafaa 19:58, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Err, Mustafa, did you see this in the source you site:"...And finally, the young Sadat admired Adolf Hitler whom the anticolonialist Sadat viewed as a potential rival to British control..." Word play is silly, to say that Sadat was anti-British and "not" pro-Nazi is poor logic and goes against what he did. Sadat was actively in touch with the Axis and was atempting to bring Egypt in on their side AGAINST the British as Axis Allies. IZAK 03:48, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Syria

Simshalom says: As for Syria, please do not make one of the worst totalitarian dictatorships, and an ally of Vichy France, into a "welcoming" home for its Jews as it was not. The vast majority of Syria's Jews fled because of its various governments' attitudes to them. It's, oh so convenient to "blame it on the Israelis", but that is just what it was, an excuse to squeeze their Jews, most of whom picked up and ran as fast as they could from the tyranny. IZAK 03:48, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustaafa says: Syria "one of the worst totalitarian dictatorships"? By all means. But its tyranny is even-handed. How are Syrian Jews worse off than any other victims of Assad? Syria is no more welcoming to the Jews than to the Sunnis or Shia or Druze or anybody else, but it has made every attempt to keep them in the country. - Mustafaa 17:24, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Islamic world

Simshalom says: This article is NOT about the "Arab or Islamic view" of Jews, and placing all the blame on the Israeli conflict etc, it is about the history of Jews as an ethnicity, and no matter what summersaults of logic one may perform, it is still a huge travesty of history that almost one million Sephardic Jews in the modern Middle East were forced to flee their ancient homes in the Islamic world they had been part of as productive, good and loyal citizens.IZAK 03:48, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: And when were they forced to do this? Hmm, just after the emergence of Israel. You think the two events might be connected in some way? Naaah...

Simshalom says: Some will say that this is too "pro" Israeli, but it does convey the FACTS as most Jews understand them to be:

JEWS IN ARAB COUNTRIES BEFORE AND AFTER 48 (
http://www.netanyahu.org/jewinarcounb.html) IZAK 02:23, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: Seriously, the measures taken against Jews in some Arab countries, notably Iraq, were quite unjust - although Jews also left en masse from countries like Morocco, which treated them as well (or as badly) as any other citizens. But it would be willful blindness to claim that this mistreatment had nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict, given both the timing and the actual statements of the governments involved - and the major Israeli campaigns to persuade them to leave, which according to some Sephardi sources went so far as planting bombs in synagogues
http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html. - Mustafaa 18:48, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Simshalom says: "Israelis bombed synagogues"??? When??? Before or after the falafel and humus was served :-) ??? Is this yet again desperation trying to "always pin the blame on Israel", what about all the bombs that Arabs threw at synagogues??? Come now!:

Mustafaa says: I gave you the link; it's not my claim, it's an Iraqi Jew's. He may be full of it, or he may be telling the truth; don't ask me. Mustafaa 20:59, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: The point is that YOU MUST TRY TO AVOID TO BLAME THE (JEWISH) VICTIM/S FOR THEIR OWN MISFORTUNES. The Arabs and Moslems MUST take full responsibility for THEIR share of the disenfranchisement, loss of property, persecution, expulsion, and cruelty towards their Jewish fellow countryman in the lands of Islam. I know its hard sometimes, but try to avoid the knee-jerk response of "It's the Jews' or Zionists' fault" every time even a mouse squeeks. IZAK 02:44, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: So when an Iraqi Jew says Israel was prepared to bomb synagogues in order to get the Jews out of Iraq, your reaction is that his statement is part of Arabs trying to evade their share of responsibility for the Jews' exodus? Sounds to me more like Israelis trying to evade their share of responsibility for it! - Mustafaa 06:53, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Be reasonable now, are you saying that because "AN" unkown "Iraqi Jew" (who is he by the way??) alleged something about Israel, then that is "why" the Jews left Iraq? This is too absurd. Israel, or its birth, was NOT solely "responsible" for Iraq kicking out about 120,000 of its (Iraqi) Jewish citizens. By the way, why would they suddenly want to "blame" people (the Jews) who had lived PEACEFULLY in their midst for over 2,000 years for something that was being done in "Palestine". Is it not self-defeating and illogical? IZAK 09:00, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: No-one is saying that the rise of the modern State of Israel had "NOTHING" to do with the animosity to Jews in Moslem lands. What is being said is that it was NOT the "ONLY" factor, NOR was it necessarily the "PRIMARY" factor, as since about the END of the 19th century, for over 100 years there were RISING TENSIONS and hatreds that were BUILDING UP for a variety of reasons (for example):

*Some had to do with Moslems THEMSELVES as the Arabs were rising up against the Islamic Turks (the Turkish Sultan had the Caliphate, the supreme position in Islam, which drove the Arabs mad with rage and jealousy), and the Jews were seen as being tied in with the Ottomans who had: first welcomed them after Spain's expulsion of its Jews in 1492; and then allowed them gradual entry into Palestine for FOUR HUNDRED YEARS to the chagrin of the Arabs. By the time the British took over in 1917 there were already tens of thousands of Jews living in Palestine for many generations.

*The rise of modern NATIONALISM with calls by local leaders for "national" Arab states that put pressures on vulnerable ethnic minorities such as the Jews in their midst, who became convenient "scapegoats" for the failures of the new Arab "revolutionary leaders" to come up with "rewards", so they conveniently incited mobs against the Jews' quarters and took away the Jews' wealth (all in the name of "nationalisation" of course,(just another name for state sanctioned robbery) and it was oh so convenient that way out somewhere in the swamps of the Galilee a few "Zionist" pioneers had the temerity to get rid of the mosquitos and plant crops, all "good enough" reason to sanction anti-Jewish resentment and even riots from Morocco to Iraq in Arab eyes;

*The rise of Fascism and Nazism in Europe with those anti-Semitic movements influencing the thinking and aspirations of rising young Arab leaders;

*Founding of the Moslem Brotherhood of extreme Islam, such as we see in the present with Al Quida of which so many Arabs our "proud"; and

*The Pan Arab ideology which was espoused, for example, by Nasser and Saddam Hussein, that called for a "Pan Arabian" alliance that was self-centered in its Arab-Islamic self-adulation and CHOSE to make "Israel" into a conevenient "rallying-cry" to unite the Arab masses, and which resulted in hatred and pressure against Jews in Arab lands to leave...(but which actually misfired as these movements brought the Arab states into conflicts with the superpowers...but that is another story). IZAK 02:23, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: The founders of modern Arab nationalism were Christians almost to a man - Michel Aflaq, to name the most prominent. They founded it specifically as an alternative to religious-based nationalism, in which they would have lost out. The movement was joined by many Jews (notably in Egypt). Hostile to linguistic minorities, maybe; hostile to religious minorities it wasn't! The rest of this rampant speculation is scarcely worth the effort of a reply; just read up about it, and you'll see that the situation was far more complex than you think... Oh, and Netanyahu.org can scarcely be claimed to represent the majority even of Israelis, let alone all Jews. - Mustafaa 21:04, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Which is the "rampant seculation" part?: Firstly, "nationalism" means all kinds, "religious" and "secular" so why confuse things?; The Arab uprisings against the Ottomans?; the influence of Fascism?; the role of the Moslem Brotherhood?; the influence of Pan Arabism?; the failed leadership of those like Nasser and Saddam Hussein?; Do you claim that these factors had "nothing" to do with the Arabs' modern hating for the Jews?;..... You know what, I think for now
http://www.netanyahu.org/jewinarcounb.html JEWS IN ARAB COUNTRIES BEFORE AND AFTER 48 may have a rational factual way about it, that may be hard to stomach for those not accustomed to hearing the "other side" of the story. IZAK 03:02, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: "Religious" nationalism barely existed at that point; it resumed much later in the twentieth century. As for the factors: yes, Arab uprisings against the Ottomans had nothing at all to do with hating Jews, and the rest of the factors you list, while relevant, are massively overstated. - Mustafaa 06:49, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: See also:

PERSECUTION OF SYRIAN JEWS

Mustaafa says: Most of the persecutions in that article - including restrictions on travel and Stalinesque reporting of family members - are imposed on Muslims as well. The monetary restrictions, however, are discriminatory. - Mustafaa 21:09, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Be real, no need to "go soft" on the Alawite Assads, as they pick everyones pockets...but you know, in the case of the Jews, it seems they, and their ilk, went beyond just "restrictions" and delighted in persecuting Jews for no other reason than that they were Jews...sounds like classical sadism, dictatorship, and anti-Semitism at work... IZAK 03:02, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Pro-Nazi Arabs such as Anwar Sadat were imprisoned

Bcorr says: Hi IZAK -- It's a pretty serious allegation that Anwar Sadat was "pro-Nazi" as opposed to "anti-British" -- do you have some citations that are pretty clear that he was a supporter of the Nazis? Thanks, BCorr|?????? 03:22, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: I am surprised you do not know this piece of important history. See even the source Mustafaa cites [6] says clearly: "...And finally, the young Sadat admired Adolf Hitler whom the anticolonialist Sadat viewed as a potential rival to British control..." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: See some important examples from the web:

Islam's Nazi Connections

(http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=4934) :"...Major Nazi sympathizers of this era include Ahmed Shukairi, the first chairman of the PLO; Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar Sadat, future presidents of Egypt; and the founders of the Pan-Arab socialist Ba'ath party, currently ruling Syria and Iraq. One Ba'ath leader has since recalled of this time: "We were racists, admiring Nazism, reading their books and sources of their thought. We were the first who thought of translating Mein Kampf." Many of the Nazi sympathizers of this era have never repudiated their beliefs; some still openly parade them....Thankfully, the Nazis of course lost WWII and the abortive alliance between Islam and Nazism never panned out. Sadly, there exist Moslems today, not on the fringes but in the mainstream of their nations, who still view this as a great lost opportunity based on profound natural affinities." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Islamism, fascism and terrorism
(
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DL04Ak01.html):

"Islamism, or fascism with an Islamic face, was born with and of the Muslim Brotherhood. It proved (and improved) its fascist core convictions and practices through collaboration with the Nazis in the run-up to and during World War II. It proved it during the same period through its collaboration with the overtly fascist "Young Egypt" (Misr al-Fatah) movement, founded in October 1933 by lawyer Ahmed Hussein and modeled directly on the Hitler party, complete with paramilitary Green Shirts aping the Nazi Brown Shirts, Nazi salute and literal translations of Nazi slogans. Among its members, Young Egypt counted two promising youngsters and later presidents, Gamal Abdel Nasser and Anwar El-Sadat. Whether al-Banna, who had already been in contact with German agents since the 1936-39 Palestine uprising against the British, or someone else introduced Sadat and his free officer comrades to German military intelligence is not known. But in the summer of 1942, when Rommel's Afrikakorps stood just over 100 kilometers from Alexandria and were poised to march into Cairo, Sadat, Nasser and their buddies were in close touch with the German attacking force and - with Brotherhood help - preparing an anti-British uprising in Egypt's capital. A treaty with Germany including provisions for German recognition of an independent, but pro-Axis Egypt had been drafted by Sadat, guaranteeing that "no British soldier would leave Cairo alive". When Rommel's push east failed at El Alamein in the fall of 1942, Sadat and several of his co-conspirators were arrested by the British and sat out much of the remainder of the war in jail...." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Beyond the Pale: Nazism, Holocaust denial and the Arab world:

"...When in 1953 a rumour spread that Hitler was still alive, the Egyptian newspaper Al Musawwar asked several leading Egyptian personalities to write him a personal letter. One of those who did so was Anwar Sadat. His message was this: "My dear Hitler! I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissentions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan ... Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)


1942-1952, Egpyt: Nasser's Nazis and the CIA :

"In the summer of 1942, when German General Erwin Rommel's Afrikakorps were poised to march into Cairo, Anwar Sadat, Gamal Nasser and their buddies were in close touch with the attacking force and, with help from the Muslim Brotherhood, were preparing an anti-British uprising in Egypt's capital. A treaty with Germany had been drafted by Sadat. It included provisions for German recognition of an independent, but pro-Axis Egypt, and guaranteed that no British soldier would leave Cairo alive. When Rommel's push east failed in the fall of 1942, Sadat and several of his co-conspirators were arrested by the British and sat out much of the remainder of the war in jail. Islamist-fascist collaboration did not cease with war's end. King Farouk brought large numbers of German military and intelligence personnel as well as ranking ex-Nazis into Egypt as advisors. It was a bad move. Several of the Germans, recognizing Farouk's political weakness, soon began conspiring with Nasser and his Free Officers,  who, in turn, were working closely with the Muslim Brotherhood, to overthrow the king..." IZAK 04:39, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Bcorr says: thank you for your detailed reply with citations. I have to say that each of them -- such as the http://www.us-israel.org/about/index.shtml -- are very pro-Israel sites, and are not very balanced, IMHO -- and shouldn't be the basis for such strong allegations. I did some searching of my own, and the only citations I could find were eaither very clearly pro-Israel, right wing (like these from Campus Watch and Commentary magazine) were reader reviews of books like The Closed Circle here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566634407/002-9789435-4591258?v=glance&vi=customer-reviews -- or were comments left on bulletin boards, etc., like this one from the Seattle Times comment board: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/news/nation-world/mideast/comments.html


Simshalom says: The only question before us is whether Sadat was or was not a PRO-Nazi sympathiser, if not an outright Quisling (as the one from Norway). Regardless of the views of the Jewish sites (and they may be "forgiven" for being pro-Israel), the FACT remains the same about Sadat's pro-Nazi activities no matter which way you "slice it", to merely "categorize" his beliefs and activities as "anti-British" anti-colonialism misses the point, as the Nazi Germans ruthlesly COLONIZED all the lands they occupied, so what was Sadat's "rush"? One can only conclude he and his cohorts would have been happy with an "Islamic Republic of Nazi Egypt" which, mercifully, the British denied them. IZAK 02:42, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

CIA

Bcorr says: Also, the same Asia Times article you quote above
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/DL04Ak01.html goes on to say:

"And yet another player fond of playing all sides against the middle had entered the game prior to Farouk's ouster: In 1951, the CIA's Kermit Roosevelt (grandson of president Teddy, who in 1953 would organize the overthrow of elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh and install Reza Pahlavi as Shah) opened secret negotiations with Nasser. Agreement was soon reached that the US, post-coup, would assist in building up Egypt's intelligence and security forces - in the obvious manner, by reinforcing Nasser's existing Germans with additional, "more capable", ones. For that, CIA head Allen Dulles turned to Reinhard Gehlen, one-time head of eastern front German military intelligence and by the early 1950s in charge of developing a new German foreign intelligence service. Gehlen hired the best man he knew for the job - former SS colonel Otto Skorzeny, who at the end of the war had organized the infamous ODESSA network to facilitate the escape of high-ranking Nazis to Latin America (mainly Peron's Argentina) and Egypt. With Skorzeny now on the job of assisting Nasser, Egypt became a safe haven for Nazi war criminals galore. The CIA officer in charge of the Egypt assistance program was Miles Copeland, soon a Nasser intimate. "

Simshalom says: We are NOT discussing the CIA here. What they did as part of ESPIONAGE/COUNTERESPIONAGE is a different subject. Your question was about Sadat's pro-Nazi leanings, and I cited the sources. Whether the sources are pro or anti anything is also not the point. The FACT remains that Sadat was a strong admirer of Hitler, the Jews' arch-enemy. IZAK 23:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Egyptians during World War Two

Bcorr says: I'm not denying the fact that both Egyptians and Israelis did everthing they could to expel the British from the Middle East, but so often in wartime, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" -- and even when wars are not raging, there are events like the US-Iran-Israel arms-for-hostages Iran-Contra affair that create strange bedfellows. And if you don't mind, I'm copying this all to Talk:Jew so others can weigh in. Thanks again, BCorr|?????? 13:24, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Diplomatic and political dealings are one thing. All states and vested parties do it. But in the case of Sadat, his life's history proves that not only was he personally positive about Hitler, he also was determined to give the Nazi army under Rommel all the help it needed to enter Egypt. There was no "Israeli" policy to Nazi Germany, as there was no "Israel" until 1947. The MAJORITY of the Jewish population of Palestine was VERY pro-British, and clamored to enter its army to fight AGAINST the Nazis. Whatever minimal contacts there were with German officials was for the purpose of SAVING Jews from Hitler's gas-chambers, and keeping the doors of Palestine OPEN to Jewish immigration during the Holocaust. The Stern Gang acted to PROTEST Britain's closed-door policies, and NOT as a sign of any "liking" for Nazism, unlike Sadat and his cohorts who actually liked and emulated the Nazis. IZAK 23:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: If the quotes are correct - though I don't put much confidence in their sources - then Sadat did negotiate with the Nazis, and appreciated their role in attacking other colonial powers. But that does not imply that he supported them, as BCorr pointed out, any more than the fact that early Israel had close relations with the USSR and got many of their weapons from Communist states means they were Stalinists. Mustafaa 17:24, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom: Sadat did much more than "negotiate" with the Nazis, he liked them and coddled up to them. In contradistinction, remember, during World War Two Stalin was RIGHTLY admired by many Jews for many GOOD reasons:

*He fought Hitler to the death; Stalin's Red Army, which had over half a million Jewish men and officers in it, were the ones that conquered Berlin and had the pleasure of bringing about HITLER'S DEATH! and the end of the evil Third Reich;

*Indeed, many of Israel's early founders were Socialists and Communists and were close with the USSR, but at the same time they were also ZIONISTS and DEMOCRATS and thus were very wary of Stalin, as he was of them.

*It was Stalin who thought he could take advantage of these politically vulnerable and ideologically kindred Jews at the founding of the State of Israel, as they needed and accepted his aid AGAINST the Arabs, but the Israelis were always fully commited to DEMOCRACY and opposed Stalin's totalitarianism;

*(P.S. Stalin's first wife was Jewish, and his brother-in-law, Lazar Kaganovich, an athiestic communist hardliner, was on the Politburo with him till the end. Some have even speculated that it was Lazar Kaganovich who was behind Stalin's death in 1953, when Stalin began to plan the deportation of the the USSR's Jews to Siberia. Silly Stalin!) IZAK 03:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: "Rightly" admired by Jews? The man who killed 5-10 million people, according to the Wikipedia? Good to know that you've got a double standard about genocides. - Mustafaa 20:10, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom: Nobody is saying that Stalin was a "nice man", he was a tyrant. But he was a key ally against Hitler. During World War Two Stalin's USSR was one of the three Allied Powers and was welcomed as such by Winston Churchill of Great Britain and Franklin Roosevelt of the USA. Churchill himself justified his alliance with Stalin inspite of his own anti-Communism by saying in the British House of Commons: "If Hitler were to invade Hell I would support the Devil (against Hitler)". Stalin had an ambivelent relationship with his country's Jews, and they with him. From the point of view of SOVIET JEWS during the Holocaust, there was no "double standard", to them Stalin was the man who DECISIVELY DEFEATED and DESTROYED their arch-enemies: Hitler, Nazism, Fascism, and the Third Reich during the "Great Patriotic War", their name for Russia's struggle against Germany during World War Two. This does NOT mean to say that "EVERY" Jew on the planet is an "admirer" of Stalin, on the contrary, but the fact remains that to the millions of Russian Jews at the time he was their "hero". IZAK 01:48, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: Sure, he was a crucial part of the destruction of Nazism. But that's no excuse for admiring a mass murderer like Stalin. Zionism was the worst national threat the Palestinians faced at that time; does that make it OK if a Palestinian admires Hitler? "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" indeed... - Mustafaa 01:51, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: You make it sound "so casual", sure this and sure that...Stalin was the war-time leader of the USSR and many secular communist Jews (NOT the religious or Orthodox Jews whom they hated and banned) had helped him build the new Soviet Union, they needed him to defeat Hitler for obvious reasons not just as Jews but as part of an eastern Slavic country that Hitler would have devoured. I strongly disagree with you: Zionism was NOT a threat to anyone. On the contrary, every Jew who arrived in Palestine brought greater wealth, creativity and jobs to Palestine. Most at one time were just simple Orthodox Jews who wanted to study Torah and pray in the Holy Land of their own ancestors. Later the secular Zionists arrived, but their focus was on CULTIVATING the LAND turning it from deserts into something good for everyone: Jew and gentile. It is fanatical inciters of Arab emotions against Jews who are to blame for the riots that killed innocent Jews in Palestine, then and now. REMEMBER: To this day it is Arab Palestinians who clamor for jobs in Israel and NOT vice-versa. If a Palestinian admires Hitler it only shows how deluded they are politically and ideoligically. IZAK 02:07, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa: And anyone who admires Stalin or Mao is just as deluded as someone who admires Hitler. I make no distinctions among murderers of millions. - Mustafaa 06:45, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: You know, for someone who gets very specific about PRECISE facts in Arab history, you tend to zoom out when the subject is not to your liking. This is not a comparative study of history's mass-murderers. The subject is "ethnic Jews" here. Mao, Hitler, Stalin, and others were all tyrants and cruel totalitarians. Mao had NOTHING to do with Jews, he ruled over a billion Chinese. Hitler ruled over most of Europe and he wanted ALL the Jews DEAD. Stalin ruled over the USSR, and he killed millions of people, INCLUDING many JEWS. It just so happens to be that during the Jews' darkest hour of the Holocaust, Stalin kept the borders of Russia open to any Jewish refugees fleeing eastwards to Siberia, and he was the one to destroy the Nazi killing machine and thus those Jews under Stalin were saved. So within that context the Russian Jews admired him. Soon he would be plotting to wipe them out to, but he failed. Jews today do NOT "respect" or "venerate" Stalin at all, (unlike some Arabs who idolize Hitler), but at the time he was viewed with favor by his Jewish countrymen for his role in destroying Hitler. IZAK 09:19, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Silly Stalin" !

Cecropia says: "Silly Stalin"--now there's a vivid phrase! I remember the last days of Stalin, and somehow I could never picture calling him "silly." Especially not to his face, :) Cecropia 03:41, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Dear Cecropia, Yeah, now, 50 years after his death, it's "official", Stalin can be called "silly" as we watch (formerly athiest) Putin shake hands with rabbis and give them awards, (former Soviet anti-Zionists) hugging Israeli diplomats, and (previously communist politicians) opening up Russia to the arch-capitalist "oligarchs" some of whom are Jewish by birth...what a world... IZAK 04:02, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Cecropia says: Ah, Brave New World! :) Cecropia 04:31, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Baathists in Iraq & Syria

Mustafaa says: "The rise of the Baath parties in Syria and Iraq resulted in their large ancient communities fleeing as refugees." This is factually incorrect in two respects: practically the entire Iraqi Jewish community had fled before the rise of the Baath party, as pointed out earlier, and the Jews of Syria were actively prevented from leaving by the Baath Party until 1992. - Mustafaa 17:31, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Playing word games is not an alternative to history. The rise of the Baath parties was a process that took many years. By the time they took over in Iraq many Jews had fled PRECISELY BECAUSE it was the moment they were dreading. Similarly in Syria, it was the actualization of the Jews's worst nightmares as whoever remained were made into prisoners of the state, and that is why so may had tried to flee earlier. It was the OPPOSITE of "spring is in the air" for a very long time for the Middle East's Jews! IZAK 03:14, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: Making provably false statements is not justified by the mere fact that they happen to fit what you think was the broader picture. - Mustafaa 21:10, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: So then you are saying that the Baathist phenomenon, as represented by Nasser of Egypt, Assad of Syria, (they were "united" through the United Arab Republic), and Saddam Hussein of Iraq should be somehow "EXCUSED" and "NOT" be taken as a major historical "sympton" of rabid hatred of Jews in those lands? Baathism was rooted in Fascism, and molded itself as such and was in the making for over fifty years, it represents an "age" in modern Arab history that contributed to the exodus of the Sephardic Jews from those lands. IZAK 02:20, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: First, Nasser was not a Baathist (and Assad was not in power during the UAR); second, anti-Semitism is a quite minor part of the evils of Baathism, and the people who have suffered worst from the two Baathist governments by far have been Kurds and Iranians in Iraq and Islamic fundamentalists in Syria, not Jews; third, Baathism is not an "age" in modern Arab history, it's a sad part of the history of precisely two Arab countries, and the present of one. It never made its way into the vast majority of Arab countries. - Mustafaa 06:41, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: The point is that the conditions were good enough in both Egypt and Syria that they could actually be "united" in a United Arab Republic. Nasser was also taken with the infusion of socialist, in fact SOVIET ideals, to the point, that he allied himself with the USSR and they armed him to the teeth, just as the Soviets INFLUENCED and ARMED Syria and Iraq. All three of these countries had OVERTHROWN their own Arab-style monarchies, and opted instead for SOVIET-style centralized economies and extremely SECULAR life-styles and outlooks rooted in a kind of socialistic and xenophobic "Arab egalitarianism", but with strong military central control of the levers of power. So, Egypt both before and after Nasser, Syria before and after Assad, and Iraq before and during Saddam, all SHARED a common ideology which in Syria and Iraq was formaly called "Baathism" and in Egypt it was "Nasserism" (also part of "Pan Arabism"). The net result for the Jews was that it was bad for any remaining Jewish citizens, and bad for Israel as Egypt, Syria, and Iraq always targeted Israel for war and destruction since it blocked their various paths. IZAK 09:34, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- posted by Izak @ 4:08 PM