Debating Definitions of Hebrew Language Origins on Wikipedia
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See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Judaism

Simshalom says: See User talk:Gilgamesh:A serious challenge from User Gilgamesh on Hebrew language.

Gilgamesh says: "Invitation for Hebrew linguistics project participation" for the following: Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. - Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)

Zestauferov says: Thanks for the invitation, I would be happy to participate. I was just thinking last night that we need something like this. Where do I sign up?Zestauferov 05:32, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: Well, that I don't know. I've never started a new Wikipedia Project group. I just know that this appropriately needs to be a secular pluralistic project for it to have NPOV legitimacy. - Gilgamesh 05:38, 18 July 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, so? That was actually more of an argument between Yoshiah_ap and I. That argument has been largely put to rest. Surprise, IZAK wasn't involved. :P - Gilgamesh 09:15, 22 July 2004 (UTC)

Dovi says: At the risk of stepping into another minefield, may I suggest that we tone down the rhetoric? It seems to me that the problem is not really as great as you describe it, and that all the options are legitimate.
The people who are tossing around suggestions for Israeli or Ashkenazi transliteration are mostly concerned about being both useful and user-friendly on articles about Judaism and Jews, especially in the relevant context of a living tradition among a live community and nation. I think that is a legitimate concern (though it should be argued respectfully). These people are not much concerned with historical linguistics, nor with the relevance that Hebrew may have to others in different fields, and that is also OK. Instead of being so dogmatic, I suggest allowing Hebrew to be transliterated based upon the context of the article in question. General guidelines wouldn't hurt, as long as they remain suggestions and not laws. Articles specific to Jews and Judaism may need a different style of transliteration that an article on the Samaritan Torah or Christian Bible study. It is wonderful that WP is built to allow this kind of pluralism, so let's take advantage of it instead of arguing about it.
So I think an additional Hebrew linguistics project would be wonderful, and I want to sign up! (I personally have an interest in both areas. I just hope I'll have time for all of this.)
PS: Gilgamesh, pluralism isn't only a secular concept. In fact, if it's only secular, it's not pluralistic :-) Dovi 14:07, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: Alright, I can work with all that. :) And as I said, it was largely a dispute between Yoshiah_ap and I, who said that this project would have the final say on all Hebrew linguistics conventions, when I thought it would more appropriately be a linguistics project field shared with other appropriate projects such as this one. And, also as I said, the issue was largely put to rest. But if it becomes an issue again, I wouldn't mind participating in a new Hebrew linguistics WikiProject. It wouldn't yank Hebrew issues from this project; I see such concepts as overlapping considerably and should always cooperate on an interproject basis. Oh, and I realize now that "secular pluralism" may not have been the best term; I meant "secular" more in the terms of multiple viewpoints coming together to work towards a common neutral goal; and in the case of Wikipedia, that happens to be secular concensus for the sciences involved. - Gilgamesh 13:32, 27 July 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: New serious changes by Gilgamesh: Hebrew letters written as "Canaanite"
In the past few days, User:Gilgamesh inserted some confusing information (changing guidelines he agreed to about only two "types" of Hebrew), by adding "Caananite" to Hebrew names in articles such as:
Ashqelon or Ashkelon (Canaanite, Standard Hebrew Ašq lon, Tiberian Hebrew Ašq?lôn; Arabic ?????? ?Asqal?n; Latin Ascalon)
Jaffa, Israel (Canaanite ???, Standard Hebrew Yafo, Tiberian Hebrew Y?p?ô; Arabic ???? Y?f?; also Japho, Joppa)
This leaves the reader with the perculiar impression, that "Hebrew" letters are "Canaanite" whereas Hebrew as it is known to almost everyone TODAY is written in that bizarre "Latin" font. Why do these Hebrew-associated articles have to be so bombarded with User:Gilgamesh's innundations of multiple (up to four!) examples of the words? Would this be tolerated in Wikipedia English articles were they to be started with the different "American", "British", "Australian", and "Latin", or "Old English", pronounciations? Obviously NOT, so why do Hebrew words have to be explained in: "Canaanite"; TWO forms of "Hebrew"; "Arabic"; and now even "Latin"?! (Does the Arab version on Wikipedia also carry "Hebrew", "Latin", and "Canaanite"??? Do Latin words list "Hebrew" translations etc ad nauseam?) What is the purpose of all this visual clutter? Is it meant to confuse the exact meanings of SINGLE Hebrew word/s when it should be called "Hebrew" which it is, and not "Canaanite" which no-one has a clue what that is. One Hebrew word would be quite sufficient without four other linguistic variations, and NOT "Canaanite" since the "Canaanites - are defunct. Should articles be focused on linguistics or getting the basic information across? IZAK 07:45, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: The script is called "Canaanite" because it is Canaanite alphabet for Canaanite languages. Those being: Israelite Hebrew, Ammonite, Moabite, Edomite, and Phoenician, and there have been challenges as to whether they can be considered separate languages at all. So, to avoid scientific controversy (being the key here), I use "Canaanite" instead of "Hebrew" when it comes to linguistics and alphabet, because the Hebrew alphabet is just one variety of the Canaanite alphabet. Linguistically speaking, of course. I use Hebrew letters because they are readily available in Unicode, whereas fonts do not as easily display Phoenician writing, Samaritan writing, etc.
We've had the argument over "what Canaanite is" before. You're the only who keeps repeating himself saying "no one knows what it is" despite the piling refutations that so many other people have been saying in response to you.
The basic information provided here is relevant to the linguistics, history and politics of the name. This is to dampen complaints about preferential treatment of certain names against other names, as well as to provide useful linguistic and historical information in a brief concise manner for researchers.
Linguistically, there have been Canaanite, Arabic and Latin forms of relevant mention, because Wikipedia has no preferences for relevant language.
Historically, Ashqelon and Jaffa have had Latin, Arab and Jewish histories, because Wikipedia has no preferences for historical periods.
Politically, Hebrew and Arabic names (and, if necessarily, Greek and Latin names) for places both in Israel and in the Palestinian Authority and other areas of the Levant — as well as places of religious importance to various interests — are listed, because Wikipedia does not have religious preferences.
I have far better and certainly more productive things to be doing than to be arguing with you over this. Return with new challenges, not reconstitutions of old arguments we've already visited and laid to rest repeatedly. I advise you to study the scientific materials before you try griping. Otherwise, next time I may simply ignore you, as the The Boy Who Cried Wolf was ignored. - Gilgamesh 08:32, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I have addressed the language of the headers, and decided to change the wording to be clearer to someone unscientific as yourself. I have changed Canaanite to Hebrew alphabet. It is a Canaanite alphabet (as the Hebrews adopted the Canaanite language while in Canaan), and identical or near-identical spellings are used for same names in other ancient Canaanite languages, but this rewording will have to suffice in its place. - Gilgamesh 08:46, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: I am not the one who is "playing around" with the definitions and names of Hebrew, as for example, you have now taken the above, and made it into something new yet again, reaching into the bag of linguistic names that academics never tire of inventing as they go along (today it's one thing, and next year another) (What's the next "surprize" gonna be? Aramaic words cause it's a cousin language too?): Ashqelon or Ashkelon (Hebrew alphabet ??????, Standard Hebrew Ašq?lon, Tiberian Hebrew ?Ašq?lôn; Arabic ?????? ?Asqal?n; Latin Ascalon Jaffa, Israel (Hebrew alphabet ???, Standard Hebrew Yafo, Tiberian Hebrew Y?p?ô; Arabic ???? Y?f?; also Japho, Joppa)
Your "assertion" that "It is a Canaanite alphabet (as the Hebrews adopted the Canaanite language while in Canaan).." is not accepted by everyone, certainly not by traditionalist Bible scholars, and their views have as much right to be represented here as any other group's, and is no less "scientific" as all of this stuff relates to things that took place thousands of years ago and cannot be "measured" in a lab as one would do working with chemicals!
You are furthermore making a serious error by interpreting Wikipedia's inherent openess and inclusiveness as a "license" to flood a Wikipedia article with all sorts of TANGENTIAL nonsensical information that does NOT help the reader learn anything. You could do the same to all English language Wikipedia articles by adding five alternates to each word from each of the following (take your pick) and dwelling on the fact that first there was the Old English language (I'm not sure what came before it? Hominids who spoke in Cave-man grunts? Does that deserve mention too?) that came from the Germanic language and was related to the Old Norse language and lived side by side with the Celtic languages which then became Middle English when it encountered the Norman language or Langue d'oïl which is one of the Romance languages of the Italic languages which was influenced by the Greek language when it became an Anglo-Norman language enriched by Classical Latin.....etc etc etc ad nauseam to become just plain old ENGLISH...and now take your pick from: American English, Australian English, British English, Canadian English, Caribbean English, Hiberno-English, Indian English, Middle English, Modern English, Old English, Pakistani English !!!! Phew, what a work-out...why would anyone want to put a reader through all of that I ask you unless they were looking to major in Linguistics?
You see we would never dream of doing such a foolish thing as it would CONFUSE the reader. So, when someone is reading the Hebrew name of a town in present-day Israel, such as Ashkelon or Jaffa / Yafo), the reader should NOT be subjected to a torturous and silly "academic exercise" (and that is being charitable) of confusing words that allude to histories/opinions/interpretations/political opposites/pseudo-scientific/and just plain old ridiculous verbiage that not only does NOT help describe and explain the subject, but instead induces in the reader a desire to "flip to the next page because this page is too confusing" as it tries to throw in everything, including the proverbial kitchen sink just because Wikipedia is a nice and tolerant place. Come on now, how about a little practical common sense? IZAK 09:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: People who don't understand the details are supposed to "flip the page", by skipping to past the end brace to resume reading article content. And yes, I have added multiple local standards of English in certain articles when they become relevant (primarily Hawai‘i-related articles). My responsibility is to add detail — it does not concern me if the detail is not well understood by the lay person, as they are free to skip it and read what's next. If, in the process, they experience a sense of confusion before skipping the passage, then so be it. I do whatever I feel is necessary to add as much useful detail as possible to Wikipedia articles; I also try to structure it. I want doctorate professors to be able to browse these articles and learn something new for themselves. I do not accept the deletion of relevant detail, but the detail can be organized to make it more browsable. Wikipedia is here to expand intelligence. If we were to give in to complains that Wikipedia is insulting personal intelligence or confusing someone with more detail than they were looking for, then we might as well burn the entire encyclopedia here and now so that the less intelligent could not be made uncomfortable with unfamiliar detail nor detail they have not learned how to interpret. (next paragraph)

Jayjg says: I agree with IZAK here; calling Hebrew letters "Canaanite" is silly and irrelevant pseudo-intellectualism at best. Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia for academics; on the contrary, its charter is to produce an encyclopedia which ignores the bias of "known experts" in favor of the collaborative efforts of thousands of more "ordinary" people. It is not intended as an elitist exercise in impenetrable academic-speak; there are plenty of journals for that, each catering to the specialized lingo of the few thousand people who make a living writing to each other about that topic. Academics will never refer to Wikipedia, which is fine; regular people will, and it should be written to be comprehensible, useable, and informative for them. Jayjg 17:04, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: BTW, IZAK, you keep complaining about indisplayable characters — I suggest you edit User:IZAK/monobook.css (using Cascading Style Sheets code) to make your browsing experience easier for yourself. I personally do not concern myself with Wikipedia's internal choice of CSS — I provide correct Unicode encoding, and it is none of my concern if, for whatever reason, it is not viewable in an end user's browser. Then you can discuss the Unicode characters themselves rather than repeatedly complaining that they are there, because I'm not going to get rid of them nor allow them to be deleted nor "fixed" to Arial typeface displayability. I prefer Wikipedia to fix its default CSS, rather than "fixing" Unicode to constrain to one specific typeface. - Gilgamesh 10:16, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
IZAK, after much thought, I have this to say. I do not want to get into conflicts with you. I do not want to do anything to hurt or hinder Jewish interests on Wikipedia. With so much modern violence and anti-Semitism categorically against Jews in the modern world, it seems counterproductive to pick so many fights with someone who looks at you as a brother both literally and figuratively, albeit one who quarrels a lot. If you have concerns, then I encourage you to come to me with them with courtesy and politeness, and a respect for my place as an editor, as I would also wish to respect your place as an editor. Then we can quietly and calmly discuss the issues and controversies, and how they can be straightened out. I would truly prefer this method of discussing things with you; launching angry edit sweeps and accusations and disparagements...it's incredibly caustic, and it doesn't help you, nor does it help me, nor does it help the content. I am not the ultimate authority on all things, and neither are you. I do not pretend that I am, and really...it's bad to fool yourself into thinking that you are. My analogy to The Boy Who Cried Wolf comes because when you do nothing but attack and accuse, you develop a reputation of an attacker and an accuser, and stress levels go up, and eventually, people only read your posts as long angry "grrr grrg grrrrrrr grrrrr BARK! BARK!", and you lose a little bit more of any reputation you could have had for useful diplomacy as a useful co-editor. Eventually, you really are ignored — or worse — reported for trolling. Don't allow yourself to appear as a troll, since you are not a troll if you decide not to be one. I wrote this post out of hope for your benefit, and I hope it is helpful and beneficial to you now and in the future. - Gilgamesh 12:40, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: To Gilgamesh: As far as the first part of your comments above, I shall always try to keep calm and open lines of communication with you going. However, as for the substance of this debate, it's not "trolling" when I point out that it is YOU that has been making arbitrary changes in very delicate areas that are always "strewn with mines" such as when you changed "Category:Israel geography" into "Category Israel-Palestine Geography", or insisting that Hebrew must be purely a "Canaanite" language when in fact those who adhere to a more classical Biblical interpretation, and also have their equal rights to be represented by an acceptable NPOV here, do not share this view, and your recent attempt to call Hebrew alphabet letters "Canaanite" in the Ahkelon and Jaffa articles. These are issues concerning Hebrew, a well-established classical language as well as being one that is spoken primarily by millions of Jews today, that you seem to feel you can change with the "flip of an article" on Wikipedia. One could perhaps have used this group here at Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism with people who probably know something about the subject as well, as a resource, but, no, in your eyes, this group is also a big problem. Instead, earlier, you went so far as to attack this group (and I repeat what you wrote because of its seriousness): "Wikipedia:WikiProject Judaism is trying to decide all Hebrew linguistics issues for Wikipedia by themselves. But Hebrew is not purely the realm of Judaism; it is also the realm of Samaritans, Christians and Abrahamic religion as a whole, and also secular Canaanite languages studies. I'm trying to challenge mono-cultural mono-sectarian dominance over a linguistic field that we all should be sharing together. I invite you to participate in trying to pluralize Hebrew language conventions for Wikipedia. In particular, not only is Tiberian Hebrew transliteration challenged, but also Standard Hebrew transliteration, as some people want to use only Israeli Hebrew colloquial transliteration or Ashkenazi Hebrew liturgical transliteration. I think these are perfectly valid and worthy of participation, but not at the total expense of every other Hebrew linguistics study concern. Please support a multi-religious multi-cultural scientific NPOV mandate for studying Hebrew linguistics on Wikipedia. -Gilgamesh 03:00, 18 July 2004 (UTC)." As for your other comments about me personally I will not get into a shouting match, since we are trying to be polite right? But I will say that, yes, I do tend to write clearly and respond unambiguously to issues and articles that are dear to my heart from the Category:Jews and Judaism, and if what you hear is the "barking of a hound" then maybe I am either being a good "watch-dog" or you need to adjust your antenna and get the true drift of my written words which I tend not to cloud up with academic jargon even though I hold three secular academic degrees in my own specialty of world history (but that is another subject.) IZAK 04:15, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: You are absolutely unbelievable... Absolutely unbelievable. I am appauled...
As I said, the other category name changes and use of "Canaanite" were mistakes I apologized for and bowed out of. And the dispute over jurisdiction of Hebrew language issues on Wikipedia was a dispute between Yoshiah_ap and I (and I must say that he made me pretty angry at the time), and I was encouraged to participate in the debate. So, I made an announcement asking for input, and input we got, and the subject was largely laid to waste. I have never said that this group is a problem, but I had to make it clear that this group could not have a 100% monopoly over Hebrew linguistic issues. I wanted to promote pluralist involvement in Hebrew issues, and we ended up getting a lot of that (including the participation of knowledge pools from Zestauferov, Jallan and Mustafaa), more or less solving the issue for the time being.
I kindly ask you to stop hitting me over the head with it. I'm sick of being accused by you of grandiose crusades to destroy content or destroy Jewish issues; such accusations have to be the most nauseating and ridiculous (not to mention offensive) things directed at me, as I have worked very hard for a long time to promote constructive information about beloved Israelite groups including Jews and Samaritans. And I'm sick of you bringing up already-visited arguments again and again and again — is this some sort of zealous attrition on your part? This is a rancorous cycle that must cease NOW. - Gilgamesh 04:46, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Adam Bishop says: I must agree with IZAK - I think it's safe to assume most English speakers can't read Hebrew/Arabic letters anyway, so this stuff is mostly a bunch of gibberish. And what the hell is "Tiberian Hebrew"? What does it matter how something was spelled in every random dialect of Hebrew? Especially since they are always exactly the same except for diacritics! (I won't repeat all of IZAK's other objections, but I share them as well). Adam Bishop 16:47, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: I always find Hebrew and Arabic details useful in articles. Much of the time when I'm browsing Wikipedia, linguistic information is part of what I'm looking for. If details like this are permitted for linguistic details such as Japanese, Classical Latin, etc., then why not the relevant Crusader, Arab and Israeli histories of Ashqelon? It's unfair to call it "gibberish" — it is extra information that a less-educated reader doesn't understand, and that's okay, because they can skip over it. And as for Tiberian Hebrew and Standard Hebrew, they are actual standards, and not simply dialects. Tiberian Hebrew is the transliteration of the phonological details of the Masoretic Text (and the Tiberian Vowel Pointing System, also known as niqqudot). Standard Hebrew is the secular standard drafted by Eliezer ben-Yehuda. The two standards have different scope: Tiberian is old (from the Middle Ages) and religious and highly-detailed, making it very valuable for historical linguistic research; Standard is new and secular and much less-detailed, but is important as the Israeli standard. Also, that part of the world is still highly disputed in different ways by hundreds of millions of people, so it only makes sense to calm anxieties by adding Hebrew and Arabic linguistic detail for every place in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and nearby places (such as Damascus) of religious significance. "Ascalon" was the Latin name of Ashqelon during the Crusader States, and "Japho" and "Joppa" are names of Jaffa used in the KJV Bible, the main translation of the Bible in English. Every bit of detail has its important (and helpful!) place, and is not "gobbledygook". And as I said before, to be clearer, I already changed "Canaanite" to "Hebrew alphabet" to make it clear what I meant. I conceed now that "Canaanite" was a poor choice of words, but it was not an act of obfuscation nor malice — to be truthful, it simply did not occur to me that it would be confusing. By the way, didn't we already have this discussion before? Jallan gave a long and firmly commanding lecture as to the importance and significance of Tiberian Hebrew. - Gilgamesh 03:34, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: To Gilgamesh: When you say: "Also, that part of the world is still highly disputed in different ways by hundreds of millions of people, so it only makes sense to calm anxieties by adding Hebrew and Arabic linguistic detail for every place in Israel, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the Golan Heights, and nearby places (such as Damascus) of religious significance." "Calm anxieties"??? By adding Arab names to Israeli cities? Who exactly is getting "anxious" here? As far as is known, Israel is a legitimate democratic country. It is being "disputed" by suicide bombers and dictatorships such as Saudi Arabia and Libya. So it makes me very "worried". Which "hundreds of millions" of people are you talking about? Are you saying that you, Gilgamesh, have set yourself up as a "judge" of the Arab-Israeli struggle? So let me ask you, to prove your even-handedness are you also editing any article about Arab countries in Category:Arab and inserting Jewish and Hebrew words and letters IN HEBREW of places and people in all the articles of Arab countries since MILLIONS of Jews lived in those countries and their cities for thousands of years? In fact, the source of the Arabic language is Hebrew itself according to some scholars (Maimonides). It seems that it is only this area of Jews, Judaism, Bible and Hebrew that is getting this unfair one-sided POV splatterings of names in multiple languages in three forms of Hebrew, Arabic, Latin, (no Greek yet, but it could always be squeezed in) because YOU want to "calm anxieties". Tell that to the marines. IZAK 04:42, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: New "twist and turn" as "Hebrew alphabet" is switched to "Hebrew languages" To Gilgamesh: Just when one thinks there was perhaps some clarity settling in, as when recent articles on Jaffa, Israel and Ashqelon were switched from (newly introduced) Canaanite languages to the VERY CLEAR Hebrew alphabet for the given Hebrew lettering, now it is being switched yet again to the once again confusing definition of Hebrew languages and on that page take your pick from Ammonite language, Moabite language, Edomite language, Biblical Hebrew language, Samaritan Hebrew language, Mishnaic Hebrew language, Tiberian Hebrew language, Mizrahi Hebrew languages, Yemenite Hebrew language, Sephardi Hebrew language, Ashkenazi Hebrew language, Modern Hebrew language, all in the name of a "better linguistics convention I had previous used for Jericho" (taken from User:Gilgamesh's changes, as an example, at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jaffa%2C_Israel&action=history ). So now what is happening is that the name appears initially in a Wikipedia article, and immediately it comes up in Hebrew LETTERS but instead of the explanatory link going to Hebrew alphabet which lists all the letters clearly and beautifully on one page, rather, the reader is now being sent to Hebrew languages, as if the reader needs to know that once upon a time the Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites also "spoke it" which is hypothetical, and that there are at least EIGHT other brands of Hebrew to choose from since then, when in fact ONLY ONE, the common spoken and most used one today would be expected according to all logical and practical assumptions. So far many articles are being subjected to this unfortunate regimen, such as Haifa, Beersheba, Jaffa, Israel, Ashqelon, Ramla. IZAK 05:25, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: IZAK. You're totally impossible. You may have experience in religious studies, and I respect and appreciate that, as well as your personal religious sensibilities. But it's clear you have zero credibility as a scientist or as a diplomat. You are a reactionary, you are a fearmonger, you are a troll, you are a vandal, and now you are also ignored by me from this point on. Stay out of my hair, as you're not worth wasting time with. I'll invest my time with Yoshiah_ap, Zestauferov, Woggly and other "heretics" instead. - Gilgamesh 06:07, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: I see that for all your talk, you would rather revert to name-calling and slander and self-righteousness rather than stick to the points under discussion. All that has happened thus far between us here is that I have been bringing to light the zigs and zags of YOUR editing of Hebrew words as you refuse to remain with one clear definition of a Hebrew word that will be universally understood but instead prefer to introduce confusion rather than clarity. YOU keep on making constant CONTROVERSIAL changes and you accuse me of all sorts of wierd things. What a pity. IZAK 06:26, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Previous use of Hebrew variations: Samaritan Hebrew
Here are some examples of Samaritan Hebrew being provided as primary introductory explanations, and then twiddled with (See history at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Tribe_of_Manasseh&action=history ):
First (it's in "first" place):
The Tribe of Manasseh (????, Samaritan Hebrew Manatch, Standard Hebrew M?našše, Tiberian Hebrew M?naššeh: from ???? našš?nî "who makes to forget")
And then (it's put in "second" place):
The Tribe of Manasseh (Hebrew alphabet ????, Samaritan Hebrew Manatch, Standard Hebrew M?našše, Tiberian Hebrew M?naššeh: from ???? našš?nî "who makes to forget")
On what basis are these changes and decisions being made? Neither of which is very helpful necessarily. Question: How practical or relevant is it to have "Samaritan Hebrew" as one of four "explanations" of one Hebrew word or phrase? Furthermore, how consistent is it with other articles where Samaritan Hebrew is NOT put in, or is it a harbinger of future additions, when the previously agreed upon amount of names was only TWO Hebrew ones with NO need for an Arabic, Latin, or other possible choice. This just adds to the merry-go-round of dizzying eye-sores that these Hebrew-worded Wikipedia articles are being subjected to, when nothing of the sort happens to other such articles in other languages. IZAK 07:24, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

RESULT/s of this debate: The "birth" of: Wikipedia:WikiProject Hebrew languages
Please join Wikipedia:WikiProject Hebrew languages.
Your input will be crucial.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Hebrew_languages

Simshalom says: Related background discussions about this new Wikiproject
Please see the following as it has been the reason why this project was commenced by User:Gilgamesh:
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Pronunciations Part 2
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Transliterations
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#A serious challenge from User Gilgamesh on Hebrew language
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#New serious changes by Gilgamesh: Hebrew letters written as "Canaanite"
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#New "twist and turn" as "Hebrew alphabet" is switched to "Hebrew languages"
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Previous use of Hebrew variations: Samaritan Hebrew
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Judaism#Hebrew Text
Thank you. IZAK 09:01, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: Actually, this was Zestauferov's idea, and I decided to endorse and promote it. Before that, I hadn't given much thought about such a WikiProject. - Gilgamesh 09:06, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Ok then, be that as it may. IZAK 09:11, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: Now seemed as good a time as any to establish the project. (I'm still not talking to IZAK. I'm merely posting under the established subject header. I feel he is free to contribute here as far as he is constructive. In anger and total frustration, I said some rather unchristian things to him, which I believe to have been true, but should probably not have been said in a diplomatic situation as this is supposed to be. It will probably be best if I do not talk to him at all, as our personalities seem to clash at every turn.) - Gilgamesh 09:20, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: I honestly feel that User:Gilgamesh is over-reacting and I am not worried by anything he may have or not have said. I think he is mistaking solid debate and discussion for something else and personalizing words that are only meant to elicit the truth and attain clarity so that Wikipedia can best serve all its members and readers. IZAK 09:27, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: Thoughts Regarding Science and Theology in Article Data.
What follows is my point of view. I think that for the sake NPOVing an article, the scientific method — completely detached from both endorsement and condemnation of religion — is the most NPOV approach, because it is based on empirical evidence and counter-evidence. It is true that many religions dispute parts of science or the scientific method altogether, but if everyone tried to force unscientific beliefs — which I should emphasize may or may not be true (but where fact, rather than truth, is relevant to science) — then we would never agree on anything to put in the bodies of articles. Therefore, the most neutral and heavily-argued scientific fact should come first in articles. But additionally, different religious viewpoints can be annotated as viewpoints, to help the reader not only understand the science, but also the socioreligious position surrounding the science, as well as wholly religious alternatives to the scientific answer. With all this harmoniously structured in an article's content, everyone is by average offended the least. There's no way we will please everyone, so just forget about it. Let's just use our collective support and make sure the toothpick can stand balanced without falling over. Now, in the case of Hebrew linguistics specifically, science says they are Canaanite languages, and many religious scholars say that Hebrew is the original cosmic language. Okay, so there's no reason both points can't be conveyed: science as empirically attested, and faith as adherently believed. I suspect some people may still be dissatisfied with this arrangement, but any greater compromise would knock down the toothpick. - Gilgamesh 04:24, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Some (counter) observations:
This is not about the manufacture or balancing of "toothpicks". This is also not about "endorsement and condemnation of religion", no-one is endorsing anything here (how could they, this is Wikipedia with thousands of editors), we are just concerned with the facts, the truth, and clarity, to help arrive at good information and knowledge.
It is a fact that Hebrew is the language of the Hebrew BIBLE and the Hebrew Bible was written in one Hebrew language (except for the brief sections in Aramaic which is also the language of the Zohar and Talmud).
It is a fact that the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) is first and foremost a 2,000 - 3,300 year old "religious" text, directly and primarily connected to Judaism which is very clear (and science need not affirm that, as it would clearly be a waste of its time). Later, Christianity added the New Testament written primarily in Greek so it is not germane to this discussion.
Today it is the Jews and Judaism that are most commonly associated with the Hebrew language which is viewed by most people as a "Jewish language".
The debate about the "universality" of Hebrew occurs mainly within mostly Secular (Both Jewish and non-Jewish) academic circles, and within some religious groups who may have their own idiosyncratic views about Hebrew in order to validate their self-belief in Supersessionism (the traditional Christian belief that Christianity is the fulfillment of Biblical Judaism, and therefore that Jews who deny that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah fall short of their calling as God's Chosen people).
From Wikipedia article on Science: "Science is both a process of gaining knowledge, and the organized body of knowledge gained by this process. The scientific process is the systematic acquisition of new knowledge about a system. This systematic acquisition is generally the scientific method, and the system is generally nature. Science is also the scientific knowledge that has been systematically acquired by this scientific process." Thus note: It is nature which is science's primary objective, not religion.
It is only in very recent times with the advent of the notion of Scientism which wishes to corrupt pure Science and make it into the servant of a secular civil "religion" with its own "beliefs" which is clearly not the business of pure science at all, and should be rejected by all Wikipedians as a Stalking horse for Atheism and even anti-religion which would be a clear-cut case of a prejudiced POV, no less than one steeped purely in "religion" would be.
Everyone on Wikipedia should ask themselves: Is it Science or Scientism that is attempting to apply "Scientfic methods" to everything, trying to measure Biblical narratives by the same yard-sticks as a Mickey Mouse Comic book even when it's clearly a case of over-reaching the bounds of what science should and can do.
By definition, pure science (from the root "scio" "to know"), should concern itself only with that which is knowable, like atoms, cells, and chemicals, and even these are not fully knowable with their literal dangerous Atomic and Nuclear powers rooted in Light and Energy. ("Let there be light!" anyone?)
However, in the case of the Social sciences, and our subject here falls under one of its classes of Linguistics one needs to tread very carefully, as other more complex factors and truths must be considered and which alone are bound to be of limited value at the risk of becoming a Pseudoscience, especially when studying what is primarily a spiritual Biblical Category:Jewish texts and the prime repository of the Hebrew language which unavoidably deal with esoteric matters such as God, miracles, and prophets etc (accepted by many Jews for thousands of years, as well as by billions of Christians and Moslems), and about which there is no "ultimate" agreed upon science to speak of, but which cannot be ignored by Wikipedia as it desires to describe and explain all things, including religion. There is of course the modern controversial Documentary hypothesis of Bible texts, which does not detract from the fact that the texts remain "Biblical" and are written in the Hebrew language which is a factual given constant.
It is a fact that the Hebrew Bible records the histories of Cananaites, ancient Egyptians, Assyrians, etc and it is clear that it is the the only comprehensive on-going reliable source of information about other cultures such as Moabites, Ammonites, and Edomites that would never have been known were it not for the Hebrew Bible's carefully kept record of facts.
In the case of any other language, by all means use any method available to arrive at conclusions. But, because Hebrew is the language of the Hebrew Bible, as well as of other comprehensive classical Jewish texts such as the Mishnah, the Biblical "Oral Law" which is two thousand years old, it is impossible and foolish to believe that it can be "completely detached from ... religion", as that would then only convey a miniscule part of the totality of all the facts and the complete truth, and Wikipedia is here is here to convey the totality of that information.
Finally, one needs to remember that Hebrew is also a modern spoken living language in the Jewish State of Israel. IZAK 06:18, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: How many real "Samaritans" are alive today?
Can anyone please supply accurate up-dated figures for the present-day population of Samaritans alive today. The reason for this question is obvious: Is there an quivalancy between the actual millions of Jews who either speak and write vibrant Hebrew with a small unknown insignificant miniscule group of reclusive and secretive people living in a few hidden villages who speak a dialect of what may or may not be "Hebrew" at all? IZAK 07:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: Approximately 500 between the two communities. The ones in Holon have Israeli citizenship, and the ones in Gerizim have dual passports. But you should know better that sheer modern numbers of Jewish Hebrew speakers does not eclipse a language that is still preserved and regarded as sacred by a surviving well-documented religious group. Do not dismiss a religion as "insignificant" simply because it is small; that is incredibly offensive. And it is Hebrew, for certain. The Samaritans preserved their form of Hebrew as a native language even into the first centuries of the Common Era when the surrounding Western Aramaic had already been the region's lingua franca for centuries before. Even after that the language was never forgotten, and is still a cherished liturgical language in which the Samaritan Torah is written. Between the expulsion of Jews from the Holy Land and the conquest by the Byzantines, Samaritans were the dominant group in the region, occupying the emptied homes left behind by Jews, until the Byzantines crushed their revolt and they started to dwindle. Their numbers were barely a hundred at the beginning of the 20th century, but their population has since rebounded to the 500 it is now. At home they speak either Israeli Hebrew in Holon or Palestinian Arabic at Gerizim, but they use Samaritan Hebrew in their worship. They still gather frequently at Mount Gerizim, and they are very decidedly not endangered. - Gilgamesh 08:09, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: The question is numbers, and not their religion. If as you say, they are so small as a people (100 to 500 max), and they mostly speak and use Israeli Hebrew in any case, why include "Samaritan Hebrew" in articles relating not to the Samaritan Bible but to the Jewish Hebrew Bible? Why not then insert Egyptian hieroglyph of the Egyptian language since: "Records of the Ancient Egyptian language have been dated to 2600 BC. It is part of the Afro-Asiatic group of languages and is related to Hamitic (North African languages) and Semitic (languages such as Arabic and Hebrew). The language survived until about 200 AD; its lifespan of some 2800 years makes it the oldest recorded language known to modern man." (From the Wikipedia introduction). IZAK 08:22, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: If you notice in essence, I only added one Hebrew spelling to each article. The transliterations are more for modern Jewish, medieval Jewish, and modern Samaritan, where they are relevant. The Samaritans still cherish their language a great a deal, and refer to their patriarchs as Aphrime and Manatch, and that live tradition is worth mention among the distinctive Jewish, Christian and Islamic names and traditions in each theology article. They love their Aphrime and Manatch, let them keep their love unburied. IZAK. (Okay, if you can be nice, I'm referring to you in name and in the first person again. And...I also apologize for calling you "the loud one". And I'm sorry for calling you those labels on the other discussion page, which was not and is not a nice thing to do.) - Gilgamesh 09:51, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Mustafaa says: The Samaritan Bible is identical to the Jewish Hebrew bible, apart from a few passages dealing with Mt. Gerizim, and of course the pronunciation. - Mustafaa 19:06, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Is Arabic a form of Hebrew?
Can anyone name scientific sources that will show the direct relationship between Arabic and the Hebrew language, as Arabic only spread as a Lingua franca in North Africa and the Middle East relatively later in history with the spread of Islam. According to Maimonides (citation) Arabic is a corrupted form of Hebrew. IZAK 07:34, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: I'm well aware of the religious positions concerning Arabic and Hebrew, and they are worthy of mention and detailed diligent description, by all proper means. But scientifically Hebrew is regarded as a Northwest Semitic language, and Arabic as a sister group. As such, one could say that Arabic evolved from Hebrew, and Hebrew evolved from Arabic, because at one point in ancient history they were not separate languages. But the Arabic language as it is known is more commonly attributed to tribes in South Arabia (often associated with Biblical Joktan), with the northerly traditional Ishmeelite tribes being assimilants to old South Arabian languages. These various traditional associations of ancestry in Abrahamic religion are a big reason why these languages are called "Semitic", though whether the early patriarchs of Shem themselves spoke an ancestral Semitic language is something that science does not really know, and cannot draw a conclusion for; I'll explain that a little better below. (Science can also not prove that there even was a person Shem, leaving that to the realm of faith and spiritual truths.) - Gilgamesh 08:09, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
But I can say that, based on the most well-accepted historical relations among Semitic languages, linguists often cite a theoretical reconstructed Proto-Semitic language, explaining the most probable origin of similar words in Canaanite languages, Aramaic, Akkadian, Arabic (Old South Arabian), Modern South Arabian, and Ethiopic languages (such as Ge'ez and Amharic). There's actually another article that discusses these issues: Semitic languages and List of Proto-Semitic roots (the latter being the theoretical language I just mentioned). - Gilgamesh 08:09, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
If you think that these language families don't match the family trees of the Biblical Table of Nations, you wouldn't be the first person to observe that — traditional Biblical national lineages do not at all well match the families constructed in linguistic analysis. Personally, from a religious point of view, I don't find this in conflict, as I assume that it would have been common after the Tower of Babel for people to have started speaking one language, but later assimilated to a neighbor's language. This would have been inevitable for issues such as intermarriage and useful skills like bilingualism required for inter-national trade. - Gilgamesh 08:09, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I hope that wasn't too long and complicated for you, I'm being as clear as I can be. - Gilgamesh 08:09, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Simshalom says: Wikipedia naming and signing conventions.
Please remember to sign all your entries and comments, no matter how brief, with the four tilds ~~~~
Please refrain from referring to fellow Wikipedians who have acceptable Wiki-Usernames, by name-calling and using epithets that are less than complimentary Nicknames such as "loud one", and the like, merely because that person is seriously debating you and you may not like it, but it is still demeaning and may even be a sign of latent Anti-Semitism if the intended victim of the name-calling is Jewish.IZAK 08:05, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Gilgamesh says: This person has got to be kidding... This person is the loud one because he is genuinely very loud and argue with hour after hour, day after day, week after week, without ceasing. None of the other Jewish users have this distinction; Yoshiah_ap, Zestauferov, Woggly, RK, Nyh, they've all been sweet to me, and I am fond of them for this. Besides, Latter-day Saints are staunchly philo-semitic by doctrine; LDS don't even believe Jews are "going to hell" as mainstream evangelical Christians seem to enjoy saying. To pejorate a person's jewishness would be anti-semitism. This is not that — rather, it vents frustration over the other person's tendency to grate nerves of those around him, whether they be fellow Jew, Latter-day Saint or Gentile. (I recall Yoshiah_ap expressing this as well.) Allegations of anti-semitism make me ill. I have only ever had a sense of personal warmth for every Jewish neighbor I've had in my daily life, but I must say that up to this point I've never met a single person in the whole world (yes, I know that implies I've been sheltered, and I wouldn't really dispute that) as utterly caustic in bilateral diplomacy as the loud person I mention. I could make similar accusations about anti-Mormonism, also a serious accusation in itself, but I don't and I won't, because despite our disagreements, I still give this person benefit of the doubt when it comes to him respecting my personal religious affiliations, if not not necessarily personally agreeing with them. He is totally entitled to his reservations, as am I. Also, as per LDS doctrine, I don't even hate him, because that would be utterly wrong. But every time we discuss issues, my sense of frustration never ceases, because we never see eye to eye on anything, and I wish very much that we could find something in common to bring at least a shred of peace to my mind, and his mind as well. I have had too many pounding headaches lately to see him face to face, and until we can do that, I feel more comfortable referring to him in the third person. "Loud one" can only be attributed to my weakness in the face of such extreme frustration, which I do not at all wish to continue harboring, but also does not seem to yet go away. It is a stalemate of disagreement and a frustration on my part that I see no immediate end to. - Gilgamesh 08:25, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Keep this squarely in mind. From my earliest childhood, I was told that I am Ephrathite of Israel, and that Jews are also of Judah and Benjamin of Israel, and that we are brothers and sisters we are commanded to love, closer to one another than to the Gentiles, whom we also love as brothers and sisters but are not as close to us. I appreciate that that is not widely believed nor accepted, and that's perfectly alright with me as I've grown quite used to it. But I must assert that I due to my faith, I have close affinities with Jewish and Samaritan people and Jewish and Samaritan study topics I've encountered. Brigham Young University has bustling upbeat studies of Hebrew language and Torah, as well as modern affinities of Judaism, with plenty of enthusiastic LDS students who want to learn more of a subject they really love. And in contrast, I've met other LDS people who, in various degrees, have totally driven me nuts and I never wanted to talk to them again, and also then I wished I didn't harbor any sense of bitterness. So, to be absolutely truthful, it is extremely offensive for me or one such as me to be accused of possible "anti-semitism", because in my view it would be against myself just as much as it would be against things Jewish, and I am not against either one. I mean, seriously, how would a Jew react if another Jew called them "Nazi"? It would be absolutely abominable. - Gilgamesh 08:51, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

- posted by Izak @ 2:20 AM